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Sacremas
A wanderer
(9/2/02 10:16:55 am)
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The Temple of Pacifistic Evil
Note: Campaign Journal further down...
As some of you know, I've been at it and attempting to start up a campaign in RttToEE for about a year now, but have been let down by my players. This I've figured out now is because they've heard that this adventure is basically a showcase of the MM, with one giant battle after the other... ring a bell?
They are all WW players, and prefer to roleplay over rollplay, and so the concept of about a year of non stop hack and slash does not appeal to them.
So this is my current compromise that I've thought of: why do they have to hack their way through it? Why does Big U instantly attack anyone that approach, despite the fact that he's got all the victims and treasure he wants for now?
I'm thinking of presenting it to them in a way that they can roleplay their way in, with far more relaxed badguys, with no communication other than once a week or something in the CRM between the various posts, so that a screw up at the entrance will still mean they might infiltrate the fire bridge without combat.
Naturally, I'll attack them with all the forces I can muster if they screw up, along with every devious strategy the hivemind have thought up.
I think Monte recently said that the adventure is actually supposed to be like this BTW, with all that resistance and cruel strategies to punish the PC's if they refuse to roleplay...
So, what do you think my dear hivemind? Could something like that work? Are there stuff I should alter to make it easier to slide in unnoticed and without a fight? Thanks in advance, as always...
-Sacremas
Edited by: Sacremas at: 9/16/02 5:57:06 am
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chefhermes
A wanderer
(9/2/02 10:40:51 am)
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Re: The Temple of Pacifistic Evil
It seems as though the opportunities for ROLE-play are there. My players, even though they occasionally complain about all of the hack-n-slash, have chosen to attack at every turn, even when the priests have tried to make a deal. I think that many players just assume (probably rightly so) that the EE priests will screw them over whenever they get the chance. It seems to me that it would not be terribly hard for PCs to disguise & bluff their way in, especially if the players are into that kind of role playing.
Hermes
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Siobharek 
A survivor
(9/2/02 10:51:24 pm)
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Re: The Temple of Pacifistic Evil
It's taken quite a while for my players to realize it, but they are beginning to disvocer that you can in fact roleplay yourself quite a way in.
I would suggest, however, that you remind your players that they CAN in fact get themselves into a lot of combat. And at the end, the time for talking is basically over. At that point (the Recovered Temple), you'll have lots of roleplaying opportunities with the forces from Hommlet, so you should be fine.
Go for it, get them started, but don't be too disappointed if they complain of too much hack'n'slash in Hommlet. I don't really see the cultists going down without a fight.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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 Monte Cook
A shadowy presence
(9/3/02 1:07:15 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: The Temple of Pacifistic Evil
It's set up so that you can bluff/disguise/lie/fast-talk your way through a lot of the encounters. However, some of the stuff in the CRM are just mindless monsters looking for food (in the unsettled parts). They'll have to fight or run past those.
It's almost impossible to get through with no fighting. It's surprising how far you can get without fighting, however.
Monte
http://www.montecook.com |
Sacremas
A wanderer
(9/3/02 2:53:43 pm)
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Re: The Temple of Pacifistic Evil
Yea, but even a few of those can be reasoned with, like Vranthis. I can envison Vranthis giving the PC's tasks in return for either their lives or information.
Others, like the Orcs should prove intersting as well.
But the vast majority, like the Destrachans(sp) are stuff just to run away from or kill...
BTW; I've presented this to one of my players, and he thought such an adventure (the infiltrate and destroy kind, as opposed to "kill em all!")
-Sacremas
Edited by: Sacremas at: 9/3/02 2:54:09 pm
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Thrommel
A moderator
(9/3/02 3:25:01 pm)
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Re: The Temple of Pacifistic Evil
I think a big part of the trick here is to have a party that's set up to tackle things from an RP/fast-talk angle. That means:
- First and foremost, you need players who like to play that angle. Mr. Powergamer is going to either be hopelessly bored or ruin things -- aka 'I waste him with my crossbow!' syndrome.
- You need a good 'soc' who has the skill ranks necessary to fast talk their way through the dungeon. (Typically a rogue.)
- The rest of the party has to play along. A paladin or LG cleric who refuses to consort/bargain with evil creatures will be a problem.
And then of course, you need to do some things on your side of the DM screen:
- Play up the 'uniform' theme (EVERYONE wears purple/black/whatever.)
- Focus on keeping the temples disorganized/competitive.
- Have reasons why the CRM forces aren't suspicious of the party and won't immediately cast detect good on them.
- Take that last point one step further and have the CRM forces actively recruit the party. (I would go so far as to have the Water Temple recruiting in Rastor.)
I think if you do those things, the CRM will seem much more alive, the players will feel more tied to the story/events, and the few fights they can't talk their way out of will actually be a welcome break.
The danger here is that a lot of the time you're letting your soc control the action. If there are several people with the appropriate skills, it's no problem. But having one PC hog the spotlight can get annoying for the other gamers.
-Thrommel, who says, "You know what they do with hogs, right? -Make bacon."
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Sacremas
A wanderer
(9/3/02 3:37:07 pm)
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Re: The Temple of Pacifistic Evil
I think my players are up to something like that. As for now it seems like there will only be two of them, three at most so they'd better be up for it! 
The two guaranteed to play it are both old White Wolf players (Mage and Vampire) and so should be used to such a thing. If the constant tension starts to get to us, we'll switch to a SW game for a session or two or I let loose with a small guardpost or random encounter battle.
Oh, I just realized something... one of them were previously planning on playing a half dragon paladin! I'll have to turn him down now, but after turning down both his L5R Nezumi Samurai and his SW Kel Dor (would truly stick out in the campaign...), I feel kind of bad for him... oh well.
Anyway, thanks for the list of to-do stuff. I'll probably refer to it a few times later for heads up.
-Sacremas
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deafdungeonmasterRIT
A wanderer
(9/3/02 8:39:59 pm)
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well
for most part, you can plays this game by role playing and less of combat orient methods..
but the conclusion of this game is violence..
a duel against Imix.. the book clearly said that Imix will know if you work for or against him
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Belial
A wanderer
(9/3/02 10:35:18 pm)
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Re: well
Although my group is about a month from starting RttToEE (they currently are travelling to Hommlet), I can see where encounters can be purely hack'n'slash. However even in this mode the decisions made should be in character, in recent game role-playing a fight was just as much fun. I suppose that if the whole module has a personal note to the PC's it helps. I think roll-playing only occurs when one or both parties (DM or PC) aren't giving it 100%.
As the DM if I notice this is happening it's a good time for a smoke break (we have a smoke outside policy  ) and it gives the players a little time to refocus and objectively I can always add opinions (without giving away too much). It always helps if there is some emotion used to captivate the PC's, like hatred, you find they won't worry about how long a fight has gone but rather the outcome.
This issue isn't just with RttToEE, but in any RPG; if you do what you have always done you will get what you have always gotten… if you feel that there is too much fighting ask yourself "how can I make it different?"
IMO, RttToEE is an epic, worthy of every accolade earned. As stated by deafdungeonmasterRIT the conclusion is a killer, but in every heroic novel there is always a big battle with some uber power; it's inevitable
Nuff ranting,
Belial.
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Sacremas
A wanderer
(9/4/02 1:33:32 am)
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Re: well
Thanks guys.
I know that there are combats that have to be fought, from under the moathouse (too soon to infiltrate, and with too paranoid cultists, so unles the players show a spark of true genius...) to big bad Imix himself, and that's okay! I'm not talking of making all of it a simple talk-adventure with a few bluff rolls, I'm just talking about cutting down a bit on the CRM hacking. Maybe the Outer Fane can be sneaked into with the help of Varachan, but I doubt it. Likewise with the Recovered Temple.
Think Metal Gear Solid as a D&D game and you're close to what I want... all complete with a few big boss fights!
-Sacremas
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Trithereon
A wanderer
(9/4/02 2:53:54 am)
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Re: The Temple of Pacifistic Evil
Just remember to reward the same XP for roleplaying past encounters in the CRM as you would for fighting through them ... or else you may find them sneaking into the Outer Fane at levels too low to survive Hedrack's paranoid suspicions and direct interrogations.
Indeed, you may need to find ways to get them to roleplay with most of the CRM to get the XP needed to survive the later portions of the module.
Nothing would go splat quite like a group of 6th or 7th level PCs who get caught sneaking into the Outer Fane, or if their lucky the Inner Fane ... or ...
You get the point. Eventually, their lies will be uncovered and that's when it will get ugly ... and deadly.
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PrinceLorrin
A wanderer
(9/4/02 2:53:59 am)
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Yup, think it can be done...
Yup, think it can be done...and would be much fun to play (and DM).
A lot of the guards just ignore people in robes (and the collective sense motive of the whole temple is about +5).
My part a) refuses to wear the robes, b) refuses to negotiate, c) tracks every-last creature down and kills it very dead (in fact, the Tessimon is probably using "Recorded scrying" of what happened in the Earth temple, and playing it to the troops: "See, this is what happens when you run away!").
If my party complains of "oh this is just hack and slash", i will assassinate them (IRL  ).
-Lorrin
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Sacremas
A wanderer
(9/4/02 5:19:54 am)
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Re: Yup, think it can be done...
Oh I'm going to give XP! After all, they do need to kill Imix at the end, as well as the Triad, maybe Hedrack, and probably a few head priests of the temples in order of getting their keys...
Now if I should award xp for sneaking past a guardhouse or even D'Gran... should I award it a second time on the return trip?
One option would be to plot out the entire thing from start to finish and award entire levels at the correct points instead. I already know that my players would not have a problem with such a deal.
But in the case of just 2 players, how many extra levels should I award so that they would have at least a chance? I'll try my best at getting more players and make it at least 3, but if not, I wont be able of both keeping up the suspense in a game like that and run PC's of my own, and I think having each of them run an extra would detract from the rp as well...
One last thing as well; How about equipment? Maybe they can scavenge a bit from place to place, but for the most part they'll be low on that... any suggestions? Sponsoring from an outside source would work but would also be a bit cheesy. Also, supply runs to Verbobonc would be kind of hard if you had to pass back out through all those guards again...
Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help, as do my players.
-Sacremas
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Sacremas
A frequent patron who knows what to expect
(9/12/02 11:31:23 am)
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Re: Yup, think it can be done...
Okay, as things turn out my players are now so eager at this stealth-RttToEE that they want me to start this instead of the planned Star Wars campaign (grumble.. *I* want to play SW). In fact we're likely starting up this weekend or early next week.
There will be 2 or 3 PC's. One will play a Human EldritchBard3/Figther1 going for the Knight of the Chord PrC who's looking for his mentor that vanished in this area... Another will play a Monk and wants the Shade template... I'm not so certain but I might allow him to. A possible 3rd will be a newbie (he's played 1e, but nothing else...) and I'm not sure what class he'll be.
Any other help from the hivemind? A great idea to introduce them to each other? Things to consider?
-Sacremas
"I think, therefore I am... I think" |
FuzzBender
A local, not looking for any trouble
(9/13/02 1:34:39 am)
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Re: Yup, think it can be done...
(not sure if this has come up already, but...)
You can get rid of some of the more "random" monsters like Giant Ants, Thoqquas, Black Pudding, ... that do not really contribute anything to the story (and IMHO aren't really interesting).
This way the focus of the adventure stays on the NPCs and more interesting encounters (like Bladespirit).
Cheers,
FB
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Sacremas
A frequent patron who knows what to expect
(9/13/02 1:45:23 am)
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Re: Yup, think it can be done...
Good idea. I were thinking of using the uninteresting ones as natural enemies of the temples themselves that the PC's could be charged with eradicating... but maybe removing them would be for the best. As we got a ton of other campaigns planned over this year (from SW to CoC to L5R) we'd rather complete this as soon as possible actually while still showing it justice... removing a few of the random ones could help with that.
-Sacremas
"I think, therefore I am... I think" |
Siobharek
A mysterious guy in the corner
(9/13/02 2:26:12 am)
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Re: Yup, think it can be done...
Right on! Anything non-temple related that the party can't communicate with: Get rid of it. I'd definately go easy on the restocking as well. And don't use random encounters, either.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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Sacremas
A frequent patron who knows what to expect
(9/15/02 4:35:23 pm)
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The Temple of Pacifistic Evil PC's
Okay, character creation and first session done a lot sooner than expected... and a 10 hour session at that, compromised of mostly excelent roleplaying that both my players and I am satisfied with.
So now I guess it's my duty to the hivemind to post my log... I'm using this thread for simplicity's sake.
First the Characters:
Peridan: CG Human Eldrith Bard 3/ Figther 1 - going for the Knights of the Chord PrC
Roneki: LN Half-Orc Monk 4- maybe going for Shadowdancer, maybe keep at monk
Chronos: CN Elven Druid 4- played by newbie player, so PrC's and such are undecided... he's got a Dire Wolf as companion
Peridan is in the area looking for his lost master that disappeared here... he'll find him in Firre's playroom. Roneki is traveling simply for adventure. He thinks that Peridans quest is a nice start... Chronos were sent here by his archdruid father that had a vision of a "disturbance in the nature"...
House rule; Half orcs get a bonus figther feat (a bonus feat from the figther list) at character creation. This have enabled Roneki to start off with Spring Attack. Also, Druids get the stat boosting spells, as... it's logical.
BTW, the druid player is a newbie (only played 1e...), and so of course got newbie luck; Str 16, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 12... And I've dropped my old 6d6 method! That was from a 4d6, drop highest and lowest and replace with 16 and 12... the changed 16 were an 18.
Session one soon to be posted...
-Sacremas
"I think, therefore I am... I think" Edited by: Sacremas at: 9/16/02 1:54:05 am
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Siobharek
A mysterious guy in the corner
(9/15/02 11:01:26 pm)
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Re: The Temple of Pacifistic Evil PC's
We played yesterday, and the PCs pretty much RP'ed their way into the Water Temple.
I think it's bl**dy hard! I knew that the players wanted to have some negotiations, and it will work out great if the PCs join Nilbool & Co. in an attack on the Temple of Fire. So basically, I could have said, "The priestess accepts your proposal." But instead I sat raving and all in all gave my best "insane woman" routine (I'm married, but still, it was difficult ).
All in all, it worked out pretty well, but I always underestimate the amount of preparation I should give NPCs.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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Sacremas
A frequent patron who knows what to expect
(9/16/02 3:44:26 am)
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The Temple of Pacifistic Evil, Session 1
Moved it here.
-Sacremas
"I think, therefore I am... I think" Edited by: Sacremas at: 9/22/02 7:16:03 pm
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madfox
A mysterious guy in the corner
(9/16/02 4:43:47 am)
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Re: The Temple of Pacifistic Evil, Session 1
Yep, you do not lose a level for being petrified.
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