|
Author
|
Comment
|
skouri
Pie
(11/4/02 12:20:04 pm)
Reply
|
Polymorphed!
The group I am DM'ing just entered the Reliquary (Area 63 of the CRM), and naturally, the halfling thief decides to grab a hammersphere. This polymorphs him into a dwarf. After the laughing dies down, the natural questions pop up:
1) What is his new Dexterity according to the polymorph spell? He argues 20 (his halfling's Dex.) I argue 10 (the average for a dwarf.)
2) Can a dispel magic spell turn him back?
3) Why did this polymorph him into a dwarf? Not a very good trap if it's trying to stop him from taking the hammerspheres. Why not a fish? Granted, the place is a dwarven temple, but that seems even MORE reason not to polymorph him into a dwarf.
Thanks!
Steve
|
Andorax
Orc
(11/4/02 1:07:29 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Polymorphed!
1) By the book, it is 10. When the same thing happened to the Human Psion in my campaign, I allowed him to retain his 17 strength, since denying it to him also meant costing him almost his entire inventory of powers.
I'm personally of the opinion that Polymorph shouldn't add, or take away from, an ability score that's in the "normal" range for the race. The intent, obviously, is to prevent abuse...to keep a Str 10 wizard from polymorphing into a "really strong, dexterous, healthy human" and get 3 18s cheap. However, if the PC's not gaining anything he didn't already reasonably have, I don't see stealing from him. I'd knock it down to 18 (within the "normal" range for Dwarves), but keep the same Str and Con values, too.
2) Dispel Magic cannot, however Break Enchantment can, as can another Polymorph Other.
3) Did you catch the second half of the trap? Polymorph into a Dwarf AND Dominate them into defending the Hammerspheres from intruders. IMC, when Fredrick was polymorphed and dominated, the first thing he did was step inside and lock the doors from within!
It's going to, at the very least, delay any would-be pillagers until the priests show up to deal with them (this trap, doubtless, wasn't intended for an abandoned temple).
As a parting thought...remember that some Dwarven racial abilities are inborn (Darkvision), while others come from "growing up" as a Dwarf (hatred of Orcs, training vs Giants). You might want to only allow the racial traits that are "by nature" not by history...unless he gets ahold of the emerald in the room to the south and "learns" how to be a Dwarf.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Fellwind 
Pie
(11/4/02 1:12:01 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Polymorphed!
The rest of the trap desciption indicates that he is also dominated into defending the spheres.
As far as the stats: (from the D20 SRD)
"The polymorphed creature acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature it has been polymorphed into while retaining its own mind. Physical abilities include natural size and Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores. Natural abilities include armor, natural weapons, and similar gross physical qualities. A body with extra limbs does not allow a character to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. Natural abilities also include mundane movement capabilities, but not magical flight and other magical forms of travel. Extremely high speeds for certain creatures are the result of magical ability, so they are not granted by this spell. Other nonmagical abilities (such as low-light vision) are considered natural abilities and are retained.
Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its original form.
The creature’s new scores and faculties are average ones for the race or species into which it has been transformed.
The subject retains its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change in its Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, and base saves. (New Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores may affect final attack and save bonuses.) "
"You must not Ph34r, Ph34r leads to anger, anger leads to hate. Hate leads to beatdowns, and B34td0wnz Sux0r."
|
Siobharek 
Orc
(11/4/02 1:30:55 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Polymorphed!
Also, another campaign on these boards ruled that if the polymorphed dwarf grabbed the item with the history of the dwarves (was it the Eye gem or what?), he would get all the info of being a dwarf, and would - in essence - become one in body and in mind.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
skouri
Pie
(11/4/02 1:32:22 pm)
Reply
|
Second part of trap
Yes, the thief was dominated into protecting the spheres as well. However, the funny thing is, no one in the group tried to take them from him, as they normally just throw all their loot in a portable hole for identifying later! So, he grabbed the spheres, and they went on their merry way.
I just found out about the Break Enchantment spell, and have suggested that to them. Knowing that they have a cleric capable of this, I'll probably make his Dex go to 10.
|
Abelard
Orc
(11/4/02 1:38:57 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Second part of trap
"Yes, the thief was dominated into protecting the spheres as well. However, the funny thing is, no one in the group tried to take them from him, as they normally just throw all their loot in a portable hole for identifying later! So, he grabbed the spheres, and they went on their merry way."
Er, I think you misplayed that one a little bit. He gets dominated into not letting anyone disturb the spheres... not dominated into not letting anyone but himself disturb the spheres. He'd have to put them back where they belong, on the pedestal, to satisfy the domination.
Ugh, this thread made me realize that I misplayed this trap a bit too. The elf rogue was polymorphed into a dwarf, but I allowed them to break the spell with a simple Dispel Magic. That definitely gave the trap a little bit less "bite"...
|
sheetghoul
Pie
(11/5/02 1:36:13 am)
Reply
|
Re: Second part of trap
My party enetered the dwarvenm temple this sunday. The party consists of:
two humans, two gnomes, a crystal drake (don't ask), a dwarven warrior, a dwarven fighter/priest of Clangeddin and a dwarven Priest of Moradin.
The party was selected with a background story before I had even fully read the CRM part of the module, and needless to say, the players are having a blast. I quickly enhanced the whole dwarven aspect of the module enhanced and it fitted perfectly into the campaign. In any case, the party has not yet managed to open all the doors, the gnomish thief having only a +8 to open locks. Thus the Reliquiary remains untouched. The question which will soon pose itself is: WWill the hammersphere trap activate itself if the dwarven Priest of Moradin touches them? If yes, what would you propose it's effects to be? Would a Knowledge (Religion) check give information on the spheres, and with what difficulty? I have a few ideas myself but would be very interested in the hiveminds opinions.
|
Siobharek
Orc
(11/5/02 2:04:07 am)
Reply
|
Re: Second part of trap
The module does make stipulations for what will happen if a dwarven cleric of Moradin is present (the golem will obey it). As there isn't anything mentioned with regards to the Hammerspheres, I'd say that the Domination can kick in. It would also serve the purpose of having a cleric around in the temple - and that's always nice  .
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
sheetghoul
Pie
(11/5/02 2:11:31 am)
Reply
|
Re: Second part of trap
Frankly, I was wondering about the polymorph bit; the cleric in question is female. Also the domination of a cleric of Moradin seems a bit tough; after all, priests are supposed to know what teh right thing to do is.
Aside, the priestess of Moradin successfully stopped the golem, but the party was so in awe of the possible traps in the temple that noone dared touch the emerald on the silver chain. It seemed too much like a trap for the greedy, although I played up the faint chanting voices and the holy athmosphere.
|
skouri
Pie
(11/5/02 5:07:45 am)
Reply
|
Intent of Trap
I agree that I probably played this one wrong. That would explain my question number (3) better (what's the purpose of this trap?)
The text states, "...be dominated into defending the spheres from anyone who attempts to take, damage, or otherwise disturb them."
I think at the time I probably read this out loud (bad DM!) and the player in question thought, "Ok, I'll defend them. But who's to say that _I_ can't take them?"
As far as the dominate spell, taking the gems wasn't against his nature. He is the party thief after all. 
Next time I'll try and think about the intent BEFORE triggering the trap.
So, it seems like the answer to numbers (1) and (2) are "10" and "Dispel magic doesn't work" respectively.
Thanks guys!
PS: Does Monte read this stuff? I'm curious as to his take on this.
|
Siobharek
Orc
(11/5/02 5:20:22 am)
Reply
|
Re: Intent of Trap
I guess that Monte reads this, but since he's stated repeatedly that he doesn't do many "me too" posts, if one of the other parts of the hivemind answers the question, he doesn't really chime in.
And I'd like to nominate the above to one of the longest run-on sentences on this board! Hooray!!
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
 Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/5/02 7:09:19 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
|
Re: Intent of Trap
I seem to want to strongly disagree with the ruling that the abilities scores go to a 10. This means that when the character gets another polymorph other into a halfling, his strength becomes an 8 (10-2), his dex becomes a 12 (10+2), and his con becomes a 10. All naturally average, right?
If the spell doesn't give the halfling his original scores when he gets polymorphed to a halfling form, he gets totally screwed. If it does, then it should do the same when being polymorphed into a dwarf. Remember that it is permanent, so there is no "save" of the original character mold.
Now imagine a human mage with strength 5, dex 10, and con 10. A simple polymorph to his same form gives him +5 to strength permanently! All this for a 4th level spell! Who needs wish?
Instead, I recommend applying the reverse of the halfling's modifiers (+2 strength, -2 dex) and applying the dwarf's modifiers (+2 con), but only with respect to strength, con, and dex.
e.g the above mage polymorphing into a halfling gets strength 3, dex 12, con 10.
|
Brekki 
Pie
(11/5/02 7:32:32 am)
Reply
|
Re: Intent of Trap
That is definately not how polymorph other works. I don't know exactly how the trap works, and why there is no save, but with polymorph, the creature gets the physical stats from the base creature.
|
Andorax
Orc
(11/5/02 7:39:49 am)
Reply
|
Re: Intent of Trap
There is a save, Brekki...it was failed. And Infiniti2000...the reason he'd have his old stats back if he were polymorphed back into a Halfling is that it would be using the spell for the specific purpose of reversing the previous spell, not for the purpose of changing him again.
Still, I think we're all in agreement that the "by the book" rule would be 10 Dex. Whether or not you "house rule" that to an 18 is your call.
The main thing to consider here, IMHO, is whether or not you want him to be expending a great amount of effort to get it reversed. If he's hosed over (10 Dex), he's going to try to get the group to stop what they're doing and find a cure for him, RIGHT NOW, IMMEDIATELY.
If, on the other hand, it doesn't overly hamper him, he might just roll with it. Fredrick didn't really try to undo the change on him, even though it had gone on for many days. Heck, I think half the group had forgotten he was human once.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
skouri
Pie
(11/5/02 8:06:45 am)
Reply
|
Argh!
Well, it seems I may be wrong on my number (2) question. My player found a specific passage on page 151 of the PHB which states, "Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic."
Can anyone prove to me that Dispel Magic does NOT work on Polymorph other?
Also, now we've got an argument here of whether or not the Dex would go to 10. Perhaps I should track down the Sage and see if he's still answering questions. *sigh*
|
Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/5/02 8:58:07 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
|
Re: Intent of Trap
Andorax, I'm sorry, I must have missed that sentence in the polymorph other description above "average" scores, so you are right, 10 dex/con/str. I would still then modify it by race (a dwarf should have an average 12 con, for example). I don't like it though, cause it lets a wizard with low scores abuse it, unless you can see how one wouldn't.
Also, I don't see anything in the RAW that a polymorph other can reverse a previous polymorph other. The only thing that is close is the paragraph referencing "itself", but that implies the caster of the second polymorph other is also the original victim. Maybe because a person "knows himself" enough to reverse it properly and restore the original stats.
If dispel magic works, then wouldn't the victim be detectable with a detect magic (glowing with moderate to high transmutation)?
PS This board rocks! I'm glad we get to talk about all these problems before my party gets to them.
|
nharwell
Pie
(11/5/02 10:16:56 am)
Reply
|
Re: Intent of Trap
Dispel Magic will work against Polymorph Other. You can dispel any spell that does not have an "instantaneous" duration (unless a given spell specifically says otherwise).
I'm not sure where the confusion lies regarding cancelling one polymorph with another -- the spell description clearly states "The subject can be changed into a member of its own species or even into itself."
|
Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/5/02 10:28:38 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
|
Re: Intent of Trap
My confusion (I seem to be the only one) can best be described in the following example:
BadGuy Mage polymorphs halfling rogue into a dwarf, thereby changing his stats to 10 dex, 10 str, 12 con. GoodGuy Mage then polymorphs "dwarf" rogue into a halfling. At this point, can the GoodGuy Mage decide whether to change him into his original shape ("itself"), thereby restoring his original stats, or change him into a "new" halfling ("species"), thereby changing his stats to a 12 dex, 8 str, 10 con? (You can substitute 10/10/10 for the above if you prefer.)
Depending on the original stats, the choice could have a significant benefit.
|
shidara
Pie
(11/5/02 12:58:58 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Intent of Trap
Ha! My party had an ingenious way of defeating things . . .
A detect magic saw that the pedestal was glowing with enchantment (magical trap and all) and so wre very leary of touching it. They considered knocking the hammerspheres off with a stick (which I decided would still trigger the transformation), but they then agreed they had no stick of sufficient length for them to feel safe.
Then they tried firing missile weapons at them, attempting to knock them down, but that failed.
Finally, the Wizard pulls casts Summon Monster 1 and calls up a Celestial Badger *on* the hammersphres, with instructions to knock them off the pedestal.
Poof. For a fraction of a second, a badger appears, before a large, naked, angry dwarf takes its place. everybody stood around in stunned silence for a few seconds before the spell ended. The dwarf disappeared.
I made the mistake of ruling that the enchantment was then spent, making the Hammerspheres safe to touch. Those damn things have been a thorn in my side ever since they identified them . . .
Shidara
|
Abelard
Orc
(11/5/02 1:15:02 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Intent of Trap
In my party, the rogue tried to lasso one of the spheres with a rope, then pull it off. I similarly decided that this would still trigger the trap. Since it's a magical trap, I think there's a lot of leeway in deciding exactly what triggers it.
How about if someone used Telekinesis or a similar ability that didn't require them to make physical contact with a sphere? I think I'd still have it trigger, but that case would make me think harder about it.
The summoned badger solution is a clever one, though I do wonder how the wizard would tell the badger to take or knock off a sphere, unless he had some way of communicating with it. Is he a gnome wizard, perhaps?
|
Zagig
Pie
(11/5/02 1:59:45 pm)
Reply
|
Re: Intent of Trap
Infiniti, you were not the only confused person. After reading your post, though, I think that I would have it work this way.
GoodGuy can only change the "dwarf" into a typical halfling. The only person who could change the "dwarf" into his old self would be the "dwarf" himself, since he is the only one who knows himself well enough.
However, after re-reading the polymorph other spell, it does not say who can change a creature into itself, only that a creature can be changed into itself. I suppose a DM could rule that GoodGuy Mage could change the "dwarf" back to his old self.
Zag ig
|
|
Okay -- Your Turn
Email This To a Friend
Topic Commands