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shidara
Pie
(11/6/02 9:17:35 am)
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Dealing with Invisibility
Ugh. My party now has a fetish for Invisibility. The Wizard in the party can cast two Improved Invisibilities per day, and use Chat's wand of invisibility (which is thankfully low on charges) to make essentially the entire party invisible.
They attacked D'gran's bridge area and then retreated after killing the trolls and Tippesh, but not before D'Gran was tipped off about their use of invisibility and fled. He has sent a letter to the outer fane describing the assailants, and their use of Invisibility, so they at least know what's up, and can prepare appropriate spells and such.
Also - would using a Hammersphere reveal an invisible user? My guess is yes, as casting Spiritual Weapon probably would.
In the mean time, anybody have any suggestions on dealing with this?
Shidara
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Fellwind 
Pie
(11/6/02 9:20:42 am)
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
See Invisible? The wizards should be able to learn it, if not they could request help from one of the temples.
"You must not Ph34r, Ph34r leads to anger, anger leads to hate. Hate leads to beatdowns, and B34td0wnz Sux0r."
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SSShadowcat7
Pie
(11/6/02 9:23:34 am)
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
Once a cleric is high enough level I'd say the use of invisibility purge is mandatory. If it's not on their memorized spell list in the module then change it. I've found that it's best to change a good number of the spells they have memorized once they know there is trouble brewing.
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 Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/6/02 9:30:35 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
Invisibility Purge, See Invisible, Glitterdust, Faerie Fire. Summon some monsters or allies with tremorsense or scent. I agree with SSShadowcat7 that you should adjust the cleric's prepared spells. The wizards can learn the appropriate spells or purchase scrolls. Maybe the next wizard they kill will have a number of See Invisible scrolls. Put a lackey in front of every access point, and inscribe glyphs of warding everwhere.
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shidara
Pie
(11/6/02 9:34:14 am)
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
I'm thinking that Hedrack/Naquent will be putting Glyphs of Warding with Invisibility Purge stored in several key places around the fane - perhaps just inside each bridge door? Any suggestions for appropriate places?
Shidara
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madfox
Orc
(11/7/02 12:28:55 am)
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
Using creatures with scent as guardians is also not a very bad idea. A dog is a lot cheaper then a glyph of warding and it also makes a lot of noise when it does notice anything invisible. If you are going to craft a glyph of warding, invisibility purge will generate discussion. The spell has got a target of personal, and I am not too sure such a spell can even be placed in a glyph of warding. Perhaps a dispel magic is a much better idea, since it would also target spells like silence. Such a glyph would also still be equiped with some kind of alarm or else it will have little function but to drain a bit of magic from the PCs.
D'Gran could also opt for some more mundane methods. Partially flooding the corridors, or at least making them very wet, will make it a lot easier to detect some invisible creature sneaking around. Placing a bag filled with flour with something wet above a door as a quick and makeshift trap would also work wonders.
Invisibility can also work against PCs. I remember having observed an adventure in which an invisible PC was somehow incapicitated and the other PCs simply could not find him on time when they were on the retreat.
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shidara
Pie
(11/7/02 6:57:57 am)
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
Yeah, I decided a Glyph with Dispel Magic would be a more legal fit, since it's "effect" can be a 30-ft. radius burst.
The Glyphs will be placed so that they trigger only when a non-worshipper of Tharizdun passes through the area, and in places where guardians are *right there*, so that if an invisible PC enters, they will most likely be revealed and immediately attacked.
The dogs idea is a good one, although it only alerts the nearby creatures to the enemies, not reveals them. The dinosaurs in D'Gran's area worked okay, but that 50% miss chance still sucks.
And as for Invisibility working against them, we didn;t play it very good, as they were reacting as if they could see each other unless I reminded them that they couldn't. Any suggestions on how to prevent this in the future?
Shidara
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Abelard
Orc
(11/7/02 11:32:10 am)
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
It may seem slightly cheesy to some, but note that there's no reason that D'Gran can't use his invisibility spell-like ability on targets other than himself. Invisible giants, wizards, dinosaurs... that can seriously turn the tables on the party!
Too bad Tippesh got killed - she did have See Invisible in her spellbook. Heunar (is that his name? the other wizard in D'Gran's employ) has presumably inherited it though, and could now cast it. If he has time, he could scribe a couple scrolls of it too.
Tippesh also knows (knew) Alarm. IMC, after the party's second attack on D'Gran's forces, where they got the better of him and managed to kill Slaazh, Tippesh has changed her spell mix a bit. She's dumping Sleep and Charm Person for two Alarm spells, so that she can put a "mental" alarm on the area outside the entrance the party has approached from, and keep it there 24 hours a day (by casting it twice). She's also brewed up a few See Invisible potions to give to D'Gran for his use. (I know that technically See Invisible cannot be placed into a potion, but IMC I allow it... if for no other reason than I gave one to the party as treasure once before I realized it was against the rules, and they put it to good use, so it's "established".)
She's also dumping one Lightning Bolt for Dispel Magic - the party made good use of Wall of Fire, and also are pretty obviously heavily buffed - and has also scribed a scroll of Dispel Magic to give to Heunar.
The suggested Glyphs are certainly good tactically, but does D'Gran have anyone who can actually create one? I don't think so. Of course, he could always enlist outside help from one of the temples, but I see him as too arrogant and proud to do that. If he's taken heavy losses (which he hasn't yet IMC) I suppose I could see him swallowing his pride and getting outside help, though.
Anyhow, it should be interesting when the party takes on D'Gran again. They're pretty proud of the success of their last attack, and have wacky plans about disguising themselves and charming the hill giant. They don't seem to have considered that D'Gran might be making plans of his own... We'll see. If they do trigger the Alarm spell, they'll probably be in for a rude shock!
(Poor them, they actually had their hands on the entire melon shipment and so wouldn't have even really needed a spell to charm the giants! But they showed no interest in figuring out why all these melons were being delivered or why they might be important, and they just left them sitting out in the open where D'Gran was able to snag them. I hope they feel a bit stupid when they discover all the melon rinds!)
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Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/7/02 11:36:07 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
With the RAW, neither dispel magic nor invisibility purge can be put into a glyph of warding. Only harmful spells up to third level can be put into the glyph. Keep this mind, and let your players know about any changes you make, should you use a houserule or even some "new" glyph spell.
I recommend you put sound burst in it, which would not only potentially damage the party, but would alert the complex about the intruders. Also, D'Gran with a potion of see invisibility should rightly scare the party.
Do you use minis and a battlemat? (I use minis, some stiff cardboard 24"x36" that I ruled, and some 1/8" thick wood that I cut into 1", 2", 3", 4", 6", 8", and 12" sections to use as walls, and some 1" round disks that I wrote numbers on for when I don't have enough mini badguys). At the point when a character is invisible, remove them from the board and record their position on your duplicate paper copy (maybe even the printed map from the book if you don't mind writing on it). Then, they need to move by relative values ("I move 10 feet north" instead of "I move here"). Have them do this in writing so that no one really knows where the others are. Don't allow someone to say "I move up next to the bad guy" unless (1) they are saying it out loud, including the to the bad guy or (2) in the same action they will become visible. This amount of effort will be tedious but should only be required for one or two sessions until the players get the drift and start role-playing more. For extremely dense players that don't get the drift, well, it'll be tedious.
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shidara
Pie
(11/7/02 11:51:08 am)
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
Well, I agree that Invisibility Purge cannot be placed in a Glyph of Warding - it's effect is "personal" and would threfore affect the Glyph.
However, I differ with your belief on Dispel Magic. True, it's not a "harmful" spell in that it does not cause damage. However, I don't like the use of the word "harmful" in the spell description as it is very vague.
Dispel Magic could be harmful to a character under the effects of a Water Breathing spell while underwater, or to a Flying character while crossing a chasm or open pit.
<lawyer mode off>
So IMC, I'm gonna make a ruling that any spell whose target/area/effect is *NOT* "You" or "Personal" or "Caster" can be placed in there.
Are there any spells which might be abused by this ruling?
Edited by: shidara at: 11/7/02 12:37:15 pm
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Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/7/02 12:18:17 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
"However, I differ with your belief on Dispel Magic. True, it's not a "harmful" spell in that it does not cause damage. However, I don't like the use of the word "harmful" in the spell description as it is very vague."
That's a perfectly acceptable decision.
Invisibility Purge is personal, so you might need to reconsider that one; it seems like you contradicted yourself halfway through your post.  Would you allow Magic Circle vs. whatever? I don't think it's abusive, but it would be a great way to disallow entry from summoned creatures. I don't really see anything as abusive off the bat.
So, an interesting plan would be to place multiple glyphs, one after another, the first with dispel magic, the second with sound burst, ....
Otoh, that mundane bag-of-flour trap appeals to me.
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shidara
Pie
(11/7/02 12:36:44 pm)
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
whoops, that should be " . . .whose target/area/effect is NOT "you," "personal," or "caster" . . ."
Edited above.
Shidara
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shidara
Pie
(11/7/02 1:02:27 pm)
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Re: Dealing with Invisibility
And just as a side note, the Book of Challenges contains several instances of Glyphs storing non-damage-dealing spells, particularly Dispel Magic and Antimagic Aura. (page 43, "Fool me Once")
This also implies that Invisibility Purge is valid, too . . .
So maybe by "harmful", they mean any spell that doesn't have the word "harmless" in the Saving Throw entry?
Shidara
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Crokay
Pie
(11/7/02 3:19:17 pm)
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invisibility
This just happened last night in our campaign.
One of our players has a gnome sorcerer with a bat as a familiar. What better way to see invisible creatures than with sonar? A low lever magic user and a bat could locate all kinds of invisible creatures.
Crokay
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madfox
Orc
(11/8/02 12:31:03 am)
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Re: invisibility
Quote:
The dogs idea is a good one, although it only alerts the nearby creatures to the enemies, not reveals them. The dinosaurs in D'Gran's area worked okay, but that 50% miss chance still sucks.
The goal of the dogs is to alert people of the intruders not of actually attacking them. I am a bit surprised that only the air bridge has got dogs, because of their guard abilities. Sure, the PCs will kill them in a second, but what if the dogs are trained to bark from a safe distance when being confronted by invisible opponents? Anyway, when the PCs abandoned the earth temple I had them get earth elemental dire wolves (created by applying the elemental creature template from the Manual of the Planes). Those have got both scent and tremor sense. The single invisible scout PC was in a very rude surprise and luckily for him he rolled high on the initiative roll 
You should not assume dispel magic will actually dispel the invisibility. When the spell is used as an area of effect spell, it will target the highest level spell on everybody in the area first and from there it will go do the levels until it finally dispels a spell. Since invisibility is only a 2nd lvl spell chances are other spells will be dispelled first.
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Abelard
Orc
(11/8/02 3:09:53 am)
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Re: invisibility
"You should not assume dispel magic will actually dispel the invisibility."
True. It's better than nothing, and dispelling some other buffs on the party wouldn't exactly suck. But definitely Glitterdust would be better for revealing a bunch of invisible foes.
Alternatively, if the wizard casting Dispel Magic has See Invisible going, he doesn't need to cast it as an area spell. He can target the invisible foe, giving a much better chance of getting rid of the Invisibility, plus any other buffs to boot.
I still think that's the best strategy for Tippesh, unless you decide to give her Glitterdust. I think it'd be reasonable for D'Gran to acquire a scroll of it for her if invisible attackers really give his forces a hard time, but it should definitely take at least a week... Even without a live wizard, he might be able to procure some Dust of Appearance.
In fact, I think that IMC, if they leave D'Gran alone for another week, that just might happen! Heh heh heh...
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shidara
Pie
(11/8/02 9:38:04 am)
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Re: invisibility
I'm more worried about the 3rd-level "Improved Invisibility" than 2nd level Invisibility; I can wait for an attack, I just hate the fact that the two fighters chew through everybody like an invisible cuisinart.
Keep in mind that even an improved invisibility cast at 10th level has a DC of only 21 to dispel - Hedrack's Dispel Magic Glyph is rolling 1d20 + 14, meaning he needs a 6 or higher to dispel the Imp. Invis. I like those odds.
And as for D'Gran's area, they're all dead now. I'm planning for the other areas right now. Luckily, they're looking at EL7 and up, so some powerful spellcasters should be available.
Shidara
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madfox
Orc
(11/8/02 11:38:29 am)
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Re: invisibility
Quote:
Keep in mind that even an improved invisibility cast at 10th level has a DC of only 21 to dispel - Hedrack's Dispel Magic Glyph is rolling 1d20 + 14, meaning he needs a 6 or higher to dispel the Imp.Invis. I like those odds.
First of all, if it is a 3rd lvl spell in your game, I can understand the difficulties you have got with the spell I am sure that was a typo or else you might want to recheck the level of improved invisibility. Anyway, it is not so much the odds we worry about, but the fact that with an area dispel the highest level spell is dispelled first. A spell like glitterdust -which btw is an area spell- is much more effective and it even has got a slight chance of blinding the fighters
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Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/8/02 12:14:11 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: invisibility
I agree that glitterdust would be more useful in specifically counteracting the invibile intruders. However, it is a sorc/wiz spell and glyph of warding is a cleric spell. How could they work in conjunction? I see one of three options:
(1) non-clerical spells cannot be put in a glyph
(2) non-clerical spells can be put in a glyph, but they have to be from the same caster (i.e. a multiclassed character)
(3) all spells from any caster can be combined with the glyph
I think I would only allow (1).
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madfox
Orc
(11/9/02 4:18:53 am)
Reply
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Re: invisibility
Personally I would go for 2, but to be honest, I think that arcane spellcasters in D&D get the shaft when it comes to wardings. IMO glyph of warding would also make a good wizard spell as long as some of the triggers were modified since I am not sure for example a wizard could identify faith.
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shidara
Pie
(11/11/02 2:43:03 pm)
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Re: invisibility
<Glitterdust a Sor/Wiz Spell>
Exactly my problem. This is the CRM, rife with clerics, short on Arcane types. Additionally, I prescribe to theory (1) - only divine spells can be stored in a Glyph of Warding. Thus, Glitterdust will not be an option, at least, not in the Glyphs.
And yes, Imp. Invis. is 4th level IMC, just a typo.
I'm no longer all that worried about their invisible antics. Three Demons in the BoVD have See Invisible as an at-will ability - If they keep this up, Hedrack (or anybody capable of Lesser Planar Ally) will be calling up a Babau to deal with the intruders . . .
Shidara
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