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Tristan DArque
Pie
(11/9/02 1:12:21 pm)
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Grell grapples
This discussion is kind of hidden in the Hedrack thread, and it's not really about him, so I thought I'd move it out here (and hey, Thrommel gets the chance to post about grell again :) )

Here's whats happened so far:

I said:

Quote:
As for MM2, definitely some interesting stuff in there, including confirmation, rather too late for most people on here but in time for me! - that grells can't grab medium size creatures with their tentacles...


Thrommel said:

Quote:
To clarify, it can't improved grab medium-sized creatures. It can still attempt to initiate a normal grapple, and has a +16 racial bonus to grapple checks.


I said:

Quote:
That means though, as I understand it, that it can only grab by 'initiating a grapple' (which provokes an attack of opportunity, doesn't it?), rather than simply getting a free grapple with every tentacle hit (which it gets against small-or-smaller creatures). I'm also unclear whether it gets multiple attempts per round to start a grapple (the grapple section of the PHB seems to imply you need iterative attacks from a high BAB to do that). So even with the +16 racial bonus to grapple checks (which is not mentioned in its RttToEE entry) it is much less effective than people might think.


And Infiniti2000 said:

Quote:
There something odd about that, but I can't find the flaw in the RAW. Initiating the grapple against a medium or larger creature would also provoke an AoO (normal grapple rules). It doesn't seem like it jives that the Grell doesn't provoke an AoO from small creatures, but does from medium creatures, when both small and medium creatures have the same natural face/reach. Also, a Grell can grapple up to 10 small creatures in one round, and only 1 medium or larger creature? My party is in the moathouse dungeon right now (see my thread) and will be entering the obelisk room soon enough, so I eagerly await your thoughts. Also, thanks for pointing this out, Tristan, I had not considered perusing the MMII.


And now I await further comments, from someone who's actually got a clue what they're talking about (Thrommel, I'm looking at you... though not too carefully, obviously, for fear of being dominated...)

Personally I think that, particularly given there are some updates to the RttToEE grell in its MM2 entry (such as the +16 racial grapple check bonus), this should probably end up in the FAQ, if and when we've worked it out. Everyone's going to need to run at least one grell at some stage in their campaign...

morbiczer
Pie
(11/9/02 3:33:19 pm)
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Re: Grell grapples
If the grell uses the full-attack action, he can hit with all 10 of his tentacles. To start a grapple is just a different sort of attack, isn't it? (For all I know you can try to start a grapple even with an AoO) So I would say that he can try to grapple up to 10 Medium-sized creatures in a round, if he uses the full-attack action and all 10 of them are within reach.

But I am in no way an expert.

Brekki 
Pie
(11/9/02 3:42:34 pm)
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Re: Grell grapples
If the grell hits a smaller opponent with a tentacle attack, he gets a free grapple check at +20 (+1 Str, +3 BaB, +16 Racial), assuming the Grell uses his whole body (in this case, all tentacles) to try to hold the opponent. If he uses just one tentacle, he gets a -20 to the roll, as all creatures not using their whole body do.

For each tentacle attack that hits (on smaller opponents) the Grell gets a free grapple check to try to hold the opponent. because of his Improved Grab ability. The normal limit to grapple attemps (attacks from BaB) does not apply here.

If the Grell wants to grapple a medium size or larger opponent, all the normal grapple rules apply, including the AoO from the melee touch attack.



CrossNightwalker
Pie
(11/9/02 6:25:12 pm)
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Number of grapples per round
From the FAQ, we're told that a creature, regardless of whether they have Imp. Grab or not, may only initiate as many grapples as they have iterative attacks based on their BAB.
Quote:
FAQ: Page 35
Can a creature with two natural weapons, say two claws, make two grapple attempts in a single round? Could a character using the rules for fighting with two weapons pull off the same trick? Exactly how many grapple checks can you make each round? You can make one grapple check for every attack your base attack bonus normally allows. The number of weapons you use doesn't affect the number of grapple checks you can make. For example, a dire ape, an animal with 5 Hit Dice, has a base attack bonus of +3, so it can make only one grapple check each round despite its three natural weapons.
This leads me to think that a Grell recieves only ONE grapple attempt per round, regardless of it's 10 natural attacks. The improved grab ability says nothing about increasing that number, so I, personally, would rule that the Grell can attack with as many tentacles as it likes, but only gets one grab attempt.

-Cross

deafdungeonmasterRIT
Pie
(11/9/02 9:06:20 pm)
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well
That didn't fully explains why or how a Grell can carry Krusk easily in the platform level

CrossNightwalker
Pie
(11/10/02 9:08:17 am)
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Re: well
We can explain that with this: Grell attacks with 6 tentacles on Krusk, hitting with 4. Krusk, amazingly, fails his Fort save and is paralyzed. The grell, seeing this, grapples the helpless barbarian next round with 2 tentacles, taking the minus 20 to retain dex bonus and other attacks. The paralyzed Krusk is basically helpless, and cannot resist the grapple.

And there you have it. 8)

-Cross

Tristan DArque
Pie
(11/10/02 9:17:35 am)
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Re: but the picture still sucks
Cross, you forgot to mention, the grell somehow grows to an enormous size and attempts to grapple the entire platform...

:lol

and anyway, I'm not sure the grell could do as you suggest: the -20 penalty only works for improved grabs, doesn't it? There's nothing in the ordinary grapple rules (and the grell's grapple of Krusk would have to be an ordinary grapple) which says you can take a -20 penalty and not be grappled. Is there?

Edited by: Tristan DArque at: 11/10/02 9:21:20 am
CrossNightwalker
Pie
(11/10/02 1:27:10 pm)
Reply
Re: but the picture still sucks
Ah yes, the grell's inherent enlarge ability...that always gets overlooked. 8)

About the -20: anyone can take a minus 20 during a grapple to eliminate the penalties, even if they aren't using Imp. Grab. The only thing Improved Grab does is gives you a free grapple attempt on a successful attack. So, yes, even a PC can decide to take that nasty penalty, reach out and grip someone.

Thrommel
The DM
(11/10/02 5:39:46 pm)
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Re: Grapplin' Grell
Wow, that was a remarkably coherent and logical explanation.

I have nothing to add, and unless someone else does, I'll plan on putting this in the FAQ.

It's always been one of the most confusing and misunderstood rules issues in the whole module.

-Thrommel, part blackguard, part grell, ALL EVIL ALL THE TIME! MUAH AH HA AH!!!

deafdungeonmasterRIT
Pie
(11/10/02 7:46:12 pm)
Reply
wow..
You guys did great explaining my questions on Krusk and Grell, but I don't really think that what the artist and even writer originally intent its to be.. but as long as you guys are speaking for their works, everything makes senses.

Frankly, I'm glad that I ask this question because that art is one of more decent work in RofToEE module. It just bothers me to see how a grell can easily carry Krusk. I do like how Jozan attempt to keep the platform steady though.. it is all logic..

Krusk fails fort save is something I will never dream possible..

CrossNightwalker
Pie
(11/10/02 11:09:47 pm)
Reply
Re: wow..
I had a coherent and logical explanation? Oh yes, please, do save that...it's possibly a first for me! 8)

Thanks for the kind words.

-Cross (Now, stop it. I'm gettin' misty)

Tristan DArque
Pie
(11/11/02 5:39:11 am)
Reply
Re: but the picture still sucks
Quote:
About the -20: anyone can take a minus 20 during a grapple to eliminate the penalties, even if they aren't using Imp. Grab. The only thing Improved Grab does is gives you a free grapple attempt on a successful attack. So, yes, even a PC can decide to take that nasty penalty, reach out and grip someone.


Cross, you are quite right, having checked carefully through the D&D FAQ. Sorry. I'm not sure it's in any of the core rulebooks though, so another reason to put your very good explanation of what grells can and can't do on the FAQ here.

morbiczer
Pie
(11/11/02 3:22:33 pm)
Reply
Re: but the picture still sucks

Yeah, the grappling grell should definiatly go in to the FAQ.

deafdungeonmasterRIT
Pie
(11/11/02 3:30:02 pm)
Reply
Why do you say pictures still suck?
What is that thing on Grell's tentacles? It looks like some kind of barbs, but I don't see it actually used against Krusky *poor thing*

CrossNightwalker
Pie
(11/11/02 6:09:37 pm)
Reply
Re: Why do you say pictures still suck?
At a guess? It's a barb that delivers the paralyzing venom of the Grell. Like a jellyfish (think Man o' war type of jellyfish), tentacles have barbs that hook in and deliver the venom to the prey.

Or they could be fishing hooks. Dunno. 8)

-Cross (See, now, I'm just being a smartass.)

Abelard
Orc
(11/12/02 11:59:49 am)
Reply
improved grab
"About the -20: anyone can take a minus 20 during a grapple to eliminate the penalties, even if they aren't using Imp. Grab. The only thing Improved Grab does is gives you a free grapple attempt on a successful attack. So, yes, even a PC can decide to take that nasty penalty, reach out and grip someone."

I think that I agree with this interpretation. However, the way they have worded the Improved Grab ability in the MM2 makes it sound like they can make the initial grapple attempt without the -20, and then switch to -20 mode for all subsequent grapple checks (like for pinning, or vs. the target's escape attempts).

I don't know if that's what is intended, but it sure reads that way.

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