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Realgr27
Pie
(11/20/02 7:21:50 am)
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The Group's stats , I want your opinion
Hi there !

I'm in the last stages of the preparation of the first session .
Here is the stats of the group's Chars. and I want your opinion about their strength , they're weak , normall , strong ... I'll have any problem with them in the RttToEE ?
I have to make some changes to them or in the strength of the NPCs - Monsters in the game ... ?

NAME RACE CLASS str dex con int wis cha AC HP

ANVILTH Human Fighter(L4) 16 12 16 9 7 8 22 54
[Melee : +7 , +8 (Long Sword ) Ranged : +5 ]
[Damage : Long Sword 1d8+5 , +1 Battle Axe 1d8+4 ]

GORN Human Barbarian(L4) 16 16 16 11 11 8 22 46
[Melee : +8 Ranged : +7]
[Damage : Great Axe 1d12+3 , Long Sword 1d8+3]

SARAMIL Elven Ranger(L4) 16 20 11 10 11 9 21 27
[Melee : +7 Ranged : +9]
[Damage : Great Sword 2d6+3 , Long Sword 1d8+3]

VERMIL Human Cleric(L4) 14 15 14 10 15 11 22 35
[Melee : +5 Ranged : +5]
[Damage : Great Club 1d10+2 , Heavy Mace 1d8+2]

ZESAR Human Wizard(L4) 13 12 16 19 11 14 15 30
[Melee : +3 Ranged : +3]
[Damage : Quarterstaff 1d6/1d6+1 , Dagger 1d4+1]

( I have write only the basic stats , there is not need to write the Skills and Feats and every else detail I think )

Well I think that the AC of the Chars it is very high and the damage that they can do on the NPCs - Monsters is a problem too ... As result is that the players they will slaughter them with no effort at all and with no losses even in their Hit Points ... What do you think about ?

Do you play the NPCs-Monsters of the campaign so low in HPs as they are ?
( For Example : In the Gnoll's Lair ( Gnolls(6) : hp 9,10,11,11,12,14 ) or Chatrilon Unosh :hp 27 ? ) ...


Edited by: Realgr27 at: 11/20/02 7:33:15 am
Azalnubizar
Pie
(11/20/02 7:31:18 am)
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Re: The Group's stats , I want your opinion
well, I don't know how they come to have this high AC. Especially the Barbarian...

could you add it up for us, maybe there is a mistake...

Anyway - there are other ways to hurt players, without getting through their AC 8) .

I really love touch attacks and there are quite some in the Temple able to deliver these. Furthermore, you should then try to flank them, even (if you have many little ones) try to aid each other.

AC doesn't help you against Hold Person or Fireball as well...

I wouldn't worry too much. From the rest of the stats, they do not seem overpowered to me...

Realgr27
Pie
(11/20/02 7:40:06 am)
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Re: The Group's stats , I want your opinion
Well Azalnubizar , (thank you for your reply) the Barbarian choose as a 3d Level Feat :Armor Proficiency (Heavy ) and then he buy Full Plate Mail , Ring of Protection +1 and he has A large Shield and DEX +1 ...
I think that is bad for me ...

Azalnubizar
Pie
(11/20/02 8:03:18 am)
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Re: The Group's stats , I want your opinion
Not that bad, I think.
From what it looks like, you have a very highly armored but not very flexible group.
This looks like a good idea in the beginning but might turn out to be a very bad idea in the long run (literally :-)

It looks to me, that the main part of your group has a movement rate of 20 feet per round and a maximum movement of 3x20 feet = 60 feet.
Therefore about 90 percent of your enemies can outrun you. If you do not fight dumb enemies, most will. If they see very, very heavily armored enemies, they will try to go and get reinforcements. Furthermore, most of the creatures in the Mines even have descriptions, who they will inform next.
Since most of your players are unable to catch these messengers they will have a full temple standing against them in no time and then... ever tried to run away and hide in full plate?!

Furthermore, in the middle of the temple is very, very much water. Swimming is pretty hard in full plate, I think.

By the way, climbing, hiding, sneaking etc is hard in full plate as well. We do have the rule, by the way (I do not know if this is the official ruling or just a houserule of ours), that since it reduces your dex-bonus it also reduces your initiative.

I think, even most of our frontliners would not wear an armor that would reduce their dex bonus by more than one...
(because not getting hit is even better...)

Touch spells will get them as well, pretty easy (as mentioned before) so - don't worry too much.
Maybe you get them into some situations (this is pretty easy in the beginning, where they are in the outside) where movement would be very important.
Or some situation, where they would rather not be seen / heard.

I'll trust you find some

Azal

Grumgarr
Pie
(11/20/02 8:23:20 am)
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Re: The Group's stats , I want your opinion
Hi Realgr27 and welcome aboard...

Azal has already covered much of what I'd say.
I think your group are probably no harder to hit than the average 4th-level group of fighter-types...but in heavy armour they will be slow (until the Fly spells and potions become a daily event).
Their ACs can actually get a lot higher, with a few spells.

I think though that your group (except the Ranger) have very high, (near or over maximum) hit points for 4th level. Do the Fighter and the Wizard have the Toughness feat? The Cleric too has very high hp.

Ftr 4(4d10) Con 16(+3 per die) maximum hp = 52 (actual hp 54)
Wiz 4(4d4) Con 16(+3 per die) maximum hp = 28 (actual hp 30)

One other thing - having no Rogue may be troublesome (though the Ranger might do well as a scout, he won't find many traps, and a low wisdom and intelligence mean he won't have great Spot, Search, Listen).

Good luck with your first session.
Don't worry too much about getting everything 'right' - just have fun...and be sure to let us know how it went :)

Grumgarr

...ooh, yeah, meant to say... the Barbarian, Ranger and Cleric all get an improved damage bonus with their main weapon for using it in two hands (Str bonux x1.5) - the Wizard's strength isn't high enough to benefit (and if he's using his staff as a double-weapon, he'll get severe penalties to hit - see Two-Weapon Fighting) ;)

Edited by: Grumgarr at: 11/20/02 8:26:55 am
Azalnubizar
Pie
(11/20/02 8:33:25 am)
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Re: The Group's stats , I want your opinion
yep - will be looking forward to seeing your story online.

Azal

domconnor
Pie
(11/20/02 1:02:39 pm)
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Re: The Group's stats , I want your opinion
I agree with many of the posts above - I too thought the ACs were a little high (as a whole party. I wasnt surprised at the cleric or warrior). Also the hits looked high to me too - but not unreasonably so.

I can give you some good feedback however, as I have a party of 7 - with similar (if not better) stats and Im just through to the destruction of the earth temple.

(One thing before I start though - what the hell is the person playing a barbarian THINKING when he decided to wear full plate? Thats a little ridiculous. Do you see Conan wearing full plate? A lot of his skills are not going to work - he cuts his maneuverability down etc etc. If he wanted to wear plate he should have played a fighter)

Anyway, amongst my party members Ive had a elven fighter bowman with 19 dex and 20AC, a dwarf warrior in plate with 21 str (good magic items) and 22AC, a rogue with 20 strength etc etc. As i said above - Ive also had 7-8 players each session, which is double what is recommended in the adventure.

I followed Andorax's advice not to increase the monster numbers and it worked well. At the beginning they found it fairly easy (although Big U was very difficult and 2 players died - God knows how 4 players would fare) but it soon got difficult. The group go through the monsters fairly quickly - but they often risk death. So far 5 players have died.

One other thing was noted in one of the posts above - your party aren't very maneuverable and that is going to HURT! Quite often my players have had to get climbing to save themselves (and thats just from some of the nasty wandering monster encounters). Not to mention the need for stealth. I think your group will learn that all to soon.

Anyway - I hope this is some help. As I say - its worked out fairly well for me - I dont think your party has unduly high stats or AC/HP. They will find some things easy - but the chance of death will still remain high. Just remember, this is one NASTY adventure. Very difficult. :^) (Muhahahahahahaha)

Dinsdale

Realgr27
Pie
(11/20/02 2:55:56 pm)
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Re: The Group's stats , I want your opinion
Thank you Azalnubizar you have boost my morale , you have right I have nothing to worry about , there are lot of options here :)

- Thank you for your welcome Grumgarr . Yes the most of the group ( maybe all ...) have selected the Toughness Feat one or multiple times (the Fighter I think that try to specialize on it LOL ) . -

- Well domconnor , the Player's decision to be a Barbarian was a bit compicated .. Actually he would to be a Ranger but another Player choose that too and between them the things are not so well ...then he thought that if become a Fighter then propably will have some problems with the other Player who playing the role of Fighter too ... So , he decide to be a Barbarian but when I told him that he is not proficient with heavy armors he became angry , then I explain to him that if he want it he can to get the Armor Proficiency ( heavy ) Feat and wear Heavy Armor , also explain to him what capabilitys become out of use or will have penaltys and he agree that don't bother him that ....What can I do further ... ? :) -






Roland Delacroix
Pie
(11/20/02 3:07:40 pm)
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Problems
Your Paladin is effectivelly a 25-ish point buy while the rest of the party ranges from 32-36-45-ish. If I was playing the Paladin I would have quit your group, I don't think he will be able to keep up. Either the party will wash over anything that challenges him, or anything that challenges the party will kill him.

Lots of armor, good against a few monsters. I don't think that will matter to the Howler. Make sure the ape's grapple, again touch attack. Plenty of touch spells too, Cause Moderate Wounds, etc. take advantage of their slowness. Goblins throwing Alchemist fire then retreating while another group range attacks from their rear. Lots of smaller groups. The party won't know who to chase since they will be taking lots of hits to get there.

morbiczer
Pie
(11/20/02 3:50:48 pm)
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Re: Problems
Paladin?

Killiak
Pie
(11/20/02 5:18:07 pm)
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Re: Problems
Quote:
Your Paladin is effectivelly a 25-ish point buy while the rest of the party ranges from 32-36-45-ish. If I was playing the Paladin I would have quit your group, I don't think he will be able to keep up.


and this is kind of a reason why I would consider kicking you out of my group! If you wanna play a damn power character, totally focussed on the numbers then go find some DM who plays hack&slash and doesn't give a damn about RP.
Your CHARACTER is not just a bunch of numbers and abilities. You have to give it personality and it might well become an important member of the group. I had a character once who absolutely could NOT keep it with the hard hitters of the party, but his roleplaying and some skills made him an asset.
U have no idea how much such a comment pisses me off

SIERK
Pie
(11/20/02 5:56:42 pm)
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Re: Problems
Quote:

and this is kind of a reason why I would consider kicking you out of my group! If you wanna play a damn power character, totally focussed on the numbers then go find some DM who plays hack&slash and doesn't give a damn about RP.
Your CHARACTER is not just a bunch of numbers and abilities. You have to give it personality and it might well become an important member of the group. I had a character once who absolutely could NOT keep it with the hard hitters of the party, but his roleplaying and some skills made him an asset.
U have no idea how much such a comment pisses me off.



Well, while I agree that quiting the group over low stats is an overly strong reaction, I think you are going too far here.

IMO, each group needs to have a consistent power level. Otherwise, one character is at a supreme disadvantage. Unless your campaign is highly RP based, the character with the lower stats isn't going to have as many chances to shine. Part of the pleasure is seeing "your" hero be exceptional is certain situations. If one char is always stealing the glory, that naturally leads to resentment for the vast majority of players.

And those boatload of hp's aren't going to mean much to this particular character with he fails his wis saving throw bonus of -1 and gets his head chopped off by a gnoll once a cleric Holds him. I agree with Roland that this character is underpowered compared to the rest of the characters, and I believe it will cause problems.

Oh, and BTW that Barbarian can't wield a two-handed weapon (greataxe) and use a shield at the same time.

Killiak
Pie
(11/21/02 1:33:17 am)
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bah
I dare to bet he allowed the Barb to take Monkey Grip

Realgr27
Pie
(11/21/02 5:19:26 am)
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Re: Problems
- Oh, and BTW that Barbarian can't wield a two-handed weapon (greataxe) and use a shield at the same time. -

SIERK I have not told that , he has a Long Sword for that case ...

Siobharek 
Orc
(11/21/02 6:27:37 am)
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Re: Problems
Hmmm... This is hard to know for sure, but you say that the Barbarian player chose his class because he feared that there'd be a conflict between him and the ranger and fighter players, respectively.

Is there a house rule that says that there can't be two of the same class? Or are there issues (conflicts) between the players that we are not aware of? If there is, I'd solve them ASAP, because otherwise it'll ruin your campaign.

As to the guy playing the barbarian, he's definitely made some sub-optimal choices. If he bought himself a full plate and a ring of protection, then he's spent 3,500 gp on getting himself +10 AC (+8 field plate, +1 dex, +1 ring), whereas he could have bought a breastplate +1 (1,350 gp) and a ring +1 (2,000), getting the same AC benefit with a reduced armour penalty and an increased move. And he wouldn't have lost a feat to using heavy armour. For cryin' out loud, he could have gotten himself a mithril full plate at some point! That counts as a medium armour, if that was what he wanted.

What am I getting at here? Your players may focus too much on getting the "best" or the "heaviest" protection, cf. the focus on heavy armour and lots of Toughness feats. While it may not be the case, it smacks a little of them maybe being overly materialistic and (given the fact that the barb. player threw a hissy fit at you) perhaps a little immature. You might want to keep that in mind.

But your group doesn't look insanely out of whack. Whatever benefits they have in terms of hp/AC will be made up by their lack of stealth and maneuverability. Just remember that if teh wizard gets Fly as a spell, the group's maneuverability and stealth potential will go up. That is not a bad thing! Every fly spell cast on a fighter means one less fireball to cast on the opposition.

Oh, and remember, if the opposition can see the group at a distance, they will be subjected to a high number of ranged attacks, which they can't escape due to their slow movement rate.

Anyway (I'll stop now, promise!), welcome again, and I look forward to hearing about your group's exploits.

Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

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