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bouncingboy24
Pie
(11/24/02 1:22:00 pm)
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Clerics in Moathouse need Help!
My PC's have recently entered the Moathouse, killing the dragon, grey ooze, Chatrilon, Gren and her skeletons, the ghasts and ghouls in rooms 21,22, & 31, and finally Garrik and his gnolls. The only ones left who can respond are Ysslansh, Geynor Ton and his brother Kelnar Ton (IMC, he is a level 1 cleric from a previous adventure who escaped to warn the cultists), and the ghouls in #33.
The problem I face is that my players have decided to rest in room #26a (where the mecanism to lift the portcullis is) after lowering the portcullis. They assume that by doing so they prevent anyone from escaping their wrath (they don't know of the secret passage that goes from the crypts #33 to the torture room #22).
I'm unsure of how the clerics would react. Do they know of the secret passage? Would they attempt to attack the players in an attempt to recover the relics after seeing the remains of the gnolls? Would they simply inadvertly stumble upon my players when they attempt to raise the portcullis? Perhaps the human clerics would attempt to parley since they hate Ysslansh and their insanity scores are pretty low. Or they could simply retreat into the cavern and hope Festrath will defeat their assailants.
Any insight or ideas someone might have would be greatly appreciated.
Edited by: bouncingboy24 at: 11/24/02 1:23:43 pm
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Trithereon
Pie
(11/24/02 2:09:33 pm)
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Clerics beneath the Moathouse
The evil clerics are caught between a rock, a hard place and a pit of death.
"Do they know of the secret passage?"
I wouldn't assume so, but they might find it while searching for a way out. However that leads to the next problem ... the four ghouls (2HD each) are too much for them to control, so they must try to rebuke half and control the other half which is a risky venture.
"Would they attempt to attack the players in an attempt to recover the relics after seeing the remains of the gnolls?"
I don't think so. These infidels must have defeated the dragon (which the whole group of cultists couldn't accomplish) and slaughtered their gnoll guards. The odds are that any attempt would be suicide. Not that insane clerics are against suicide missions, in general, but things are not that desperate ... yet.
"Would they simply inadvertly stumble upon my players when they attempt to raise the portcullis?"
Maybe, but I suspect that would be their last resort, which would mean they are desperate.
"Perhaps the human clerics would attempt to parley since they hate Ysslansh and their insanity scores are pretty low. Or they could simply retreat into the cavern and hope Festrath will defeat their assailants."
These are desperate acts as well. If the parley goes badly then the clerics are as good as dead. The cavern is unfriendly due to the unnatural cold. They could try to descend into the cavern, but they'd likely retreat once attacked by the grell and maybe loosing the 1st level cleric.
I'd at least give the surviving priests a Search Check (DC 15) to notice the Wall of Stone blocking the exit out. This wall is noticeably different from the rest of the moathouse dungeon. If they notice the difference then they could break it down and escape that way.
If I had to give an order of operations to this then I'd do this:
1) Search for a way out, maybe finding the Wall of Stone.
2) Attempt to control and rebuke the ghouls. Once the ghoul problem is under control they could search that area and find either the secret door and/or the Ghoul Caves.
3) Attempt to parley with Festrath in the Obelisk cavern
4) Attempt to escape through the portcullis
5) Attempt to parley with the PCs.
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 Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/24/02 3:53:08 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Clerics beneath the Moathouse
"... the four ghouls (2HD each) are too much for them to control..."
I thought I remember reading that the gnolls "listen" to clerics of the EEE or Tharizdun? I'm not sure the rebuke or command are even necessary. They could even be recruited and bolstered (keep bolstering until you get a good roll), then sent in first. It would be quite a good tactic. While the ghouls are keeping the party busy, Ysslansh, Geynor and the other one have bull's strength applied and are trying to lift the portcullis. I can hear the party inside the room, similar to Khan from Star Trek, "Someone's lifting the portcullis!" "Well, shut it then!"
Another tactic is for the clerics to use the stone shape scroll (don't forget to roll the caster level check) to escape out the back, although they don't know what they'll find. They do know it is an odd wall (I think it says so), they just haven't cared about investigating it after finding the pit. You might decide they just go straight and get away, or they could encounter the cockatrices. Oh boy, how about they subdue the "forestchickens" and dump them in the room with the party, followed by some bolstered ghouls? Heh heh.
All IMO. Good luck!
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bouncingboy24
Pie
(11/25/02 9:06:43 am)
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Re: Clerics beneath the Moathouse
Unfortunately for the cultists, my players have found Geynor Ton's journal along with the Stone Shape scroll so using it isn't an option. Neither can any of them cast bull's strength since none of them (except Festrath who's insane) can cast level 2 spells.
Would the ghouls in the crypts know of the secret passage? I would assume so since ghouls were originally found on either side of it. In that case, maybe the cultists would ask the ghouls if there's another way out in desperation and the ghouls, who are fairly intelligent, would tell them of the passage.
Last session I had the the gnolls spring the portcullis trap upon two players. I ruled that players could combine their attempts to open it (DC 27) and add up their rolls. It still took three of them to open it (two had strength 19). I like the idea of using the ghouls to distract my players while the three cultists attempt to raise the portcullis to escape. I don't think they'll get very far, however. I don't see the ghouls survivng more than 3 rounds against my players and the cultists only have speed 20.
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Trithereon
Pie
(11/25/02 10:35:48 am)
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Re: Clerics beneath the Moathouse
Quote:
I ruled that players could combine their attempts to open it (DC 27) and add up their rolls.
I am not exactly sure what you mean here. Do you mean that you allowed two players to each roll d20 add their respective strength modifiers and then add the two results together? As that Player A (19 strength) rolls a 12 for a Strength Check of 16, Player B (19 strength) rolls a 9 for a Strength Check of 13 and then add the two results together for a total Strength Check of 29?
If so, that isn't the proper method. I ask because if you ruled it that way then it may come back to haunt you again and again when they run into CRM doors that have high Break DCs.
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Trithereon
Pie
(11/25/02 10:40:46 am)
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Tharizdun clerics and ghouls
Quote:
I thought I remember reading that the gnolls "listen" to clerics of the EEE or Tharizdun? I'm not sure the rebuke or command are even necessary.
I know that Corrupt Pool in the Obelisk will turn the unfortunate into ghasts, but I don't recall anything specific about the relationship between all clerics of Tharizdun/EEE and ghouls/ghasts.
If someone has the page number, please remind me. It might be a nice angle for future adventures.
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Tristan DArque
Pie
(11/25/02 12:12:17 pm)
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Re: Tharizdun clerics and ghouls
I don't have the page number, but my recollection of it is that it specifically says that the ghasts obey EEE clerics, and that the ghouls in the torture chamber area obey the ghast. I'm not sure it says anything about the ghouls in the crypt, but I can't see why they should be any different. The way I played it, the ghasts and ghouls were a fully-integrated part of the cult defence force.
Though as it worked out, they were the weakest part, probably, because they kept getting turned (especially the ghouls). Geynor Ton spent the whole time bolstering them - in fact, there was a great sequence where the party cleric was in a room at one end of a corridor and GT was in a room at the other end, and they played Ghoul Tennis (tm) for several rounds, the cleric turning the ghouls, who fled down the corridor, got bolstered, and charged back up it, only to be turned again...
The people that hurt my party in the Moathouse were Ysslansh (because his AC rocks, especially with Protection from Good up), and Garrick (who performed well for a relatively low-level monster). Oh, and an invisible Chat, right up to the point where he rolled a 1 on his crucial death attack...
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ZansForCans
Pie
(11/25/02 12:18:17 pm)
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Re: Tharizdun clerics and ghouls
Quote:
...but I don't recall anything specific about the relationship between all clerics of Tharizdun/EEE and ghouls/ghasts.
MH rooms 21, 22, and 31 specifically mention that the ghouls/ghasts obey commands or don't attack clerics of the EEE. The crypt room (33) doesn't specifically mention this, but I am assuming it holds for them as well. The MH history section (sp. the last para) suggests that the undead are continually respawned here due to big-T's influence. In the bits of those room descriptions, it says that since EEE=big T, they listen to all the clerics present.
Also, bb24 asked a bit earlier,
Quote:
Would the ghouls in the crypts know of the secret passage?
I would guess so too. They have decent Int and are rather cunning beasts, so I don't see why not. They know about the Secret Shrine (34A), although I guess it's not specifically hidden...
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Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/25/02 12:27:14 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Clerics beneath the Moathouse
"Would the ghouls in the crypts know of the secret passage?"
It's possible. I ruled it yes. They know of the shrine but haven't told anyone about it because "they are too stupid and single-minded to tell their masters". In fact I had a real interesting encounter with a ghast (a new one after the party waited a day) at the top of the secret shaft in the torture room. Btw, you're right about bull's strength, sorry, must have thought it was 1st level.
Also, the above quote (on page 29, first paragraph) alludes to the idea that clerics of the EEE (and Big T) can automatically control the ghouls and likely ghasts. The description for area 31, page 24, also says that the ghast obeys clerics of the EEE, not people just wearing the symbol.
Re: opening the portcullis. The actual rule (dunno if this is what you mean but I doubt it) is that one more PC's can aid another by beating a DC of 10. Each time this succeeds you add +2 the main PC's attempt. Unless they are harrassed, those aiding can take 10, however, making it a sure thing. I ruled that up to four PC's could fit (2 per 5' square). The one with the highest strength (+3) was aided by three others, so he got +9 and needed to roll an 18 or better. He could take 20, but they were in a hurry, so I had them roll (took like 8 rounds!).
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Belial
Pie
(11/25/02 4:36:49 pm)
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Re: Clerics beneath the Moathouse
The Clerics there IMO would know of the secret passages within the complex.
My reasons are:
1. The place has stood there for 20 odd years with countless adventurers passing through it, even Spugnoir knows of the secret passages and the overall layout.
And…
2. For the clerics to begin the exploration of the complex they had people infiltrate the nearby town. With this sort of effort, they would surely have scouted out the dungeon portion in search of what really lay there; this is the whole reason for them being there is it not? One just doesn’t walk into a dungeon when looking for lost artefacts, they would’ve look high and low to find what secrets lay undiscovered.
Since the Ghoul/Ghasts are spawned by the taint of ‘T’ wouldn’t they know of his touch? His priest indeed can command the undead therein (as already referenced by other posters).
Based on the above the clerics could leave via the secret passage. Whether Geynor and Ysslansh would work together is a different thing. Are the artefacts are important enough to rally the undead to try and seize them? (That is if the Party has them). Imagine their return without them… “forgive us my Master, we did indeed find artefacts of our dark lord… only to have them stolen”.
Fear would be the only reason for them to fight the party, whether that is now or later is up to you.
Just my take.
Belial.
Oh and don’t forget the spontaneous casting of a cleric, IMC, several inflict light wounds by Gren dropped the Parties Barbarian.
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Tristan DArque
Pie
(11/25/02 5:06:43 pm)
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Re: Clerics beneath the Moathouse
Quote:
Whether Geynor and Ysslansh would work together is a different thing.
IMC, Chat escaped from the party and alerted the moathouse defenders. I had Gren and the skeletons defend the artifacts, and Garrick and the gnolls lay a fairly successful ambush by the portcullis, but for Geynor Ton and Ysslansh, I came up with a table that I rolled on every round to see how their argument (about what they should do) was going. They were still arguing when the PCs turned up... 
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Belial
Pie
(11/25/02 6:20:04 pm)
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Re: Clerics beneath the Moathouse
Quote:
IMC, Chat escaped from the party and alerted the moathouse defenders. I had Gren and the …<snip>
This is almost a word for word excerpt out of my campaign. Can I ask what you were rolling against for the argument? My players are about to meet G & Y.
Belial.
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Tristan DArque
Pie
(11/26/02 6:53:35 am)
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Re: Geynor Ton and Ysslansh
IMC,
GT wanted to grab the ghouls from the crypt and move out to back up the gnolls (who were defending the portcullis area), possibly then launching a counterattack to rescue Gren and the artifacts (on the assumption, reasonable enough, that she - as the first line of defence - would have been overrun by that point). I figured Gren for an idealist, encompassing both a conviction that the EEE would give them victory, and a single-minded dedication to the cause.
Ysslansh, being scaly and evil and perverted and somewhat more concerned for his own safety, was trying to work out how to leave himself an escape route if the attackers proved to be too strong, while at the same time worrying about how he would explain the Disaster at the Moathouse to Dunrat, when he caught up with him. I ruled, though, that although he knew there was a secret passage from the crypt to the stairs, he didn't actually know where it was or how to operate it, so he had to figure in some time to find it while not looking like he was trying to run away. His plan involved setting up various ambushes with the ghouls along the way, but basically he knew that if things went wrong, he was in trouble.
IIRC what I did was rolled d20 each turn. 1-3 and Ysslansh gained the upper hand in the argument, so that GT would start working with him to devise a more circumspect plan. 4-5 and GT won the argument, grabbed the ghouls and headed for the main complex, though Ysslansh would be looking for an opportunity to sneak off and find that secret door if he could. 6-19, roll again next round. 20: they start fighting. And having devised that little plan, I then proceeded to roll about a million numbers all between 6 and 19, so that when the party reached them (must have been a good 5-10 minutes game time) they were still arguing.
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Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/26/02 12:55:46 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Geynor Ton and Ysslansh
Do you think they would also argue about their respective deities? Maybe Ysslansh (with an obex symbol) knows that the EEE is also Tharizdun, but Geynor Ton doesn't. That would provide some interesting color commentary that the party could stumble upon or, better yet, eavesdrop on. This is one reason (besides being a trog) that I think Ysslansh would view himself as being superior.
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Tristan DArque
Pie
(11/26/02 2:37:42 pm)
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Re: Geynor Ton and Ysslansh
Yeah, that's an interesting idea. IMC I changed Ysslansh so that he was EEE (Earth), so it didn't arise, but if he did know about Big T, that would definitely increase his superiority complex.
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bouncingboy24
Pie
(11/26/02 7:29:44 pm)
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Portcullis Trap
I assumed that if 1 character with strength 15 can lift 200 lbs, then 2 characters with stregth 15 should be able to lift 400 pounds, etc. It seems to me that a +2 bonus is a bit little if the guy pulling beside you is just as strong. It was a rushed decision on my part, as I didn't want to slow the game in the midst of battle.
After thinking it through, if the portcullis had a DC of 27 to lift, it probably weighed about 700 lbs, since that is the max lift for a character with strength 24 (min. strength needed to get DC 27). So two characters with strength 19 (max 350 lbs), with time, should be able to lift it. Perhaps a +4 bonus given to the stronger character if the second one gets DC 15 or 20 would be more appropriate.
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bouncingboy24
Pie
(11/26/02 9:14:22 pm)
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EEE Clerics in Moathouse
I would like to thank you all for the great ideas. Much appreciated.
Since my group is fairly powerful (2 level 5's, 4 level 4's, 3 with strength 18+), I'm thinking of having Festrath perish in the excavation site and return as a ghast while my players are resting up. While this happens, I would assume the clerics would use the ghouls from the crypts to distract my players while they attempt to make good on their escape through the secret passage to the prison. After that Ysslansh would attempt to send word to Master Dunrat in Hommlet.
I would like to use the conflict between Ysslansh and the human clerics, such as one party betraying the other to escape. However, I am unsure of how to pull it off convincingly without confusing my players too much.
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Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/26/02 9:24:27 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: EEE Clerics in Moathouse
As the party breaks through the line of ghouls/ghasts, they find Geynor Ton at the top of the secret shaft yelling, "Open it up, Ysslansh! By the Dark Lord, I'll rip out your heart!" Geynor Ton could then turn to the party for help, "Quick! Go the other way, that stinking troglodyte is getting away!" Ysslansh, on the other hand, has already escaped and blocked the door with the iron maiden.
If it would work in your campaign, you could add a little more flavor by introducing the freshly killed body of another cleric in ochre-colored robes, still with a curved dagger sticking out of its back, maybe with a hand still grasping the "handle" of the secret door, perhaps even a cut-off hand.
Alternatively, the party could find Geynor Ton in the iron maiden, with a curved dagger in his chest, still grasping a piece of cloth that reeks of trogolodyte stench. The price of failure in service to the EEE is terrible.
PS I understand your point about lifting the gate and I think you made a fine ruling on the spot. Just thought I'd throw an alternate idea out there, even after the fact. 
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Trithereon
Pie
(11/27/02 2:15:52 am)
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Re: Portcullis Trap
If they are out of combat and have plenty of time then there is no reason why two, or more, people can not "Take 20" to lift the portcullis. I was just pointing out that while in combat a DC 27 represents a very difficult challenge - one that should bog down combat if they are trying to overcome it quickly. The weight of the portcullis is only one aspect of the "trap", there is also the wenching mechanism which are probably designed to only reverse direction when the proper switch is thrown in the secret room.
My players were only able to lift the darn thing after casting Bull Strength on the strongest PC, and using the Take 20 action while out of combat.
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