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Author
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JLXC
Pie
(11/30/02 6:50:30 pm)
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DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Everyone has met one. When the player is slaughtering foes with abandon and filling his pockets with gold... all is well. No challenge, No problem.
When all the smack talking is over, and they meet the REAL bad guys.... the player folds.
The players had the final confrontation with Thommel plus the Vampire Varachan (EL 16!), and some Vampire spawns, and then were jumped by 15th level Hedrack with a Demon (Jarilith from MM2) for backup (EL 17!!!!). One player (not the one in question) died (but was raised within minutes), but after it was all over... both Thrommel and Hedrack were Disintegrated. These baddies have been a continual thorn in the side! It's Curtains for them!! Yeah for the players! Kick ass show it was!!
NOW. Now that they've accomplished what said player has wanted for so long.... now he's "Tired of fighting for his life?"?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!
This player talked more smack, and started more fights than any other. He wont let the baddies even TALK. He interrupts the DM, me, all the time with "Awww just shut up and roll initiative" to the badguys.
NOW. Now he's scared his character might REALLY die. He said....
"I don't want to face anyone that tough again! That's just wrong."
They are fighting for the freaking world survival, have had Godly intervention on their behalf several times, have been given every break... and now the big whiny bitch wants to drag the whole game down after 18 months. Considering HE is the reason they could never use any stealth or roleplaying, then HE is the one who wants to "Not have to face death."
If he wasn't my friend I'd throw his ass out of the group and play his character for him. It would take no effort roleplaying wise that's for sure.
Yeah I'm mad... but the above is accurate. I talked with the other players and they understood the module from the beginning as did whiny.... they are having a great time trying to beat this thing! Whiny now is scared. Well DUH! Where have you been? There have been over a dozen PC deaths. The original group is still active (Their levels have gone up and down heh) and they are finally ready to put a sock in it!
Man some people just suck. They want D&D to be a videogame. They want an "Easy" setting. They certainly don't want to be challenged! When they are winning all is well, when they are REALLY challenged... it's a bitchfest. They want cheat codes for D&D. I know for a fact this player refuses to challenge himself even in Videogames. He HAS to use the cheatcodes so he feels all superior.
Rant over. For now.
Also... this module ROCKS!
Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,
for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup
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Zorlag
Pie
(11/30/02 10:02:36 pm)
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Sounds like that player charater needs to get disintegrated as well.  I'm sure Imix will be happy to oblige. I know this module can be tough on nerves, but jeez...
Z.
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 Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/30/02 10:47:05 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: DM Rant
I'm with you 100% JLXC. The player will not be happy until his character gets a scroll of Save Game. I had a similar problem, although the party was only in the fourth session. The thread discussing that is here. For me, it all worked out in the next session, but no one outright said they give up. I think you need to sit him down and give him the "what for." Let us know if you need some backup. Tell him about the one group out there who continued after two TPK's! I don't remember who nor could I find the link though.
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JLXC
Pie
(11/30/02 11:40:10 pm)
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Re: DM Rant
This is the same player who screams "Hey they are using our treasure!" when an NPC uses magical items.
Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,
for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup
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Siobharek 
Orc
(12/1/02 12:09:50 am)
Reply
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Re: DM Rant
How does is blatant out-of-game/character remarks affect gameplay/the rest of the group? IMC, a remark like "Hey, that's our treasure you're using!" would draw howls of laughter from everybody, whereas a remark like "Hey, that's our treasure they're using would draw a quick slap upside the head from me.
You might want to remind him about the things you said when the adventure began (this adventure is nasty, better have some backup character concepts handy, think or die, yaddayaddayadda). Or tell him that his whining is A) earning him Derision Points by the truckload all over the world and B)lessening your enjoyment of the module so would he please shut up and roll a Will Save (you did say he was a fighter, right?).
Finally, Quote:
He interrupts the DM, me, all the time with "Awww just shut up and roll initiative" to the badguys.
???
Man, that's just showing disrespect to... to... to friggin' everything! At least if he has had the brawn to do that all the time, let him show the guts to carry it through.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Ssendam
Pie
(12/1/02 8:25:10 am)
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Re: DM Rant
I've dealt with some whiney players in my time as a DM, but this person sounds like a complete child. I am surprised you have allowed his character to survive as long as he has. Does he roleplay his character like an ass as well? Maybe the other players wish to do him in. Were I DMing a player like that, I would...find a way to kill his character. I am sorry, but interupting the DM while he is roleplaying the story with the other players is unacceptable, whether he is your friend or not. You need to remind the knucklehead that this is a roleplaying game and not EQ or Neverwinter Nights.
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JLXC
Pie
(12/1/02 8:42:37 am)
Reply
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Re: DM Rant
The sad thing is he is the only Cleric in the party, so they are willing In Character to put up with it. He IS a child, but I knew that about him so I should not be surprised.
I @#%$ hate it. I talked to him some more about it. He thinks D&D should be the DM stroking off the Ego of the players because real life is so hard, or some such. When the going is rough, it's not fun anymore.
I guess the funniest thing is that they MADE IT! They survived challenges that should have killed them! They finally got some breathing room. They gained a level. They have a few days in game time to recouperate and figure out where to next. They did something so amazing. Then he goes and ruins it with his whining.
Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,
for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup
Edited by: JLXC at: 12/1/02 8:55:57 am
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Siobharek
Orc
(12/1/02 12:37:12 pm)
Reply
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Re: DM Rant
Is he a de facto child (as in younger than adult)? Or is he just a spoiled brat.
But maybe you should just stick to your guns. Tell him that all of the players did well, but that you won't budge one inch. And tell him that of course you won't stack the deck against them (as opposed to real life that, as we all know, never gives you a break), but that they will (or should) be able to overcome all challenges - if they think.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
JLXC
Pie
(12/1/02 3:25:38 pm)
Reply
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Re: DM Rant
Well we're gonna have a "chat" about it today. I am very much his friend, and that's the way I want it. I just have to bolster him up a bit I think. Real life is dragging him down. He needs to buck up! He is a little baby. I wont change the game, but I hope he will just stay and live with it. We'll see.
Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,
for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup
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JLXC
Pie
(12/1/02 3:27:14 pm)
Reply
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
He's in his 30's. he's just a child. Lack of proper development for sure... seriously. Like a younger brother who CANNOT grow up. Still... when he's not being a baby he's having fun. I just hope he can see that.
Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,
for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup
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JLXC
Pie
(12/1/02 9:40:54 pm)
Reply
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Well I didn't use pressure. I offered to call up our group and tell them we should get together to do something else maybe this week and the next. He must have realized what a wuss he was being, and after he told me what I already knew QUOTE "It's just so Hard! Is it possible for us to have a session where we are not fighting for our lives the entire time?" I said "SURE! You guys have completed the amazin task of the Outer Fane and are on your way to the Temple! You have lots of time to roleplay and have fun!" He just sighed knowing that the challenges ahead were indeed... challenging.
We reviewed the battle and talk about different views.
Mine "You guys lived through 2 encounters in a row that should have killed you! The amazing teamwork, the Fantastic use of items, the lucky rolls! It was amazing you guys rocked!"
His "I had to use all my spells, and several scrolls, and a few charges on the wands, then the bad guys got Disintegrated and their stuff was gone, and well... we barely made it! It sucked!"
I have talked to the other group members and they are very impressed with themselves, and they look forward to finishing this puppy up so they can move on to even Greater Adventures.
Whatever. I hope his pissy attitude (Which extends way beyond the game, and seems to be seasonal) will allow us to finish this thing! I thought he and the party were amazing and rocking the house. He thinks it's dumb to have to use items and scrolls to survive. This is a video game after all.
Side Rant: Sorry venting.
When calculating the party Avg. Gold per person, to compare with the DMG, he told me he felt he was 25,000 GP short. I looked over his character and calculated he was about 2k short. It seems he feels that the 17,000 GP worth of scrolls and 6k of Wands should not count against his total. Such a videogame D&D player heh!
Enough. I love my bud.. but he gets to me sometimes.
Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,
for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup
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Thrommel
The DM
(12/2/02 6:07:45 am)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Quote:
When calculating the party Avg. Gold per person, to compare with the DMG, he told me he felt he was 25,000 GP short. I looked over his character and calculated he was about 2k short. It seems he feels that the 17,000 GP worth of scrolls and 6k of Wands should not count against his total. Such a videogame D&D player heh!
I wish they had never added those tables to the DMG. I hate those things!
Players always want more treasure to begin with, but with those tables they can literally nickle and dime you on how they deserve more!
Granted, I'm old school and like to keep magic somewhat rare and special, but some players never seem to factor in things like the fact that I let them roll 3 sets of stats and use the best one.
Sorry to rant on your rant, it just seems to me that the players use those tables far more than the DM does -- and mostly to fuel complaints.
-Thrommel, who had to take his pet peeve for a walk.
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Siobharek
Orc
(12/2/02 6:13:54 am)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
No one in my group would want to face me in a "The DMG says I should get more" discussion. Mostly because I expressly forbid the presence of the DMG or the MM anywhere else but with me. If anyone began throwing DMG tables at me, I'd really, REALLY come down on them like a metric ton of bricks.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
madfox
Orc
(12/2/02 6:20:09 am)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Those tables are a great aid in knowing whether encounters will be more or less balanced for the average campaign. As long as the DM keeps that in mind when designing encounters there should be no problem. Potions, wands and scrolls do count towards that amount though as do any new spells a wizard might have written in his spellbook. If there is anything I would rant about, then it is the fact that in D&D at high levels the tools do make the game. Any creature but the lowest CR ones require at least some items to make it possible to defeat them.
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Zenon
Pie
(12/2/02 7:36:11 am)
Reply
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Quote:
then the bad guys got Disintegrated and their stuff was gone
Just a side note here, unless the bad guys rolled a natural one on their saves, no carried gear would be destroyed.
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JLXC
Pie
(12/2/02 10:10:19 am)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Zenon... Whaaaaa??
Disintegrate just effects the body leaving their gear untouched? Umm... what? Where did you see that? If a creature is disintegrated... umm... his clothes and nose rings and magical tattoos and everything on them up to a 10' cube is toast. I can't imagine another interpretation of the spell. Anyone else?
I like to play with SOME realism. You cast Blade Barrier at a 2' high level and the person dies and falls through it, I rule that the stuff is not attended and takes damage. Shredding most that falls through.
High level spells are devastating not just to the target, but to the whole area depending on the spell. IMHO.
Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,
for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup
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maddman75 
Pie
(12/2/02 10:27:06 am)
Reply
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Re: Disintegrate
/me waves at JLXC
Yup, that's the rule. Dumb, innit? Always makes me think of the Duck Dodger's cartoon with the 'disintegration-proof vest', where the ray disintegrates Daffy but leaves the vest unharmed. Unless they roll a 1 on their save.
I think the justification is that it is too devastating to a high level character who gets disintegrated. I believe I'll have it disintegrate gear, but if you come back via wish/miracle/true res your stuff comes back too. Or at least give it a chance.
As far as the tables, if your players (like mine) are fond of selling stuff they have to get stuff they want, there is typically a 50% cut in what the get out of an item when selling it. Not your fault if they decide to lose some of the money you've given them.
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Andorax
Orc
(12/2/02 10:35:13 am)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
BTB, By The Book, the posessions of an individual struck by a destructive spell, be that a Fireball, a Flamestrike, a Disintegrate or a Meteor Swarm, are not also affected unless the individual rolls a natural 1 on his save. Even then, it's only one or two of the 'outermost' items that are at risk.
A first level wizard could be blasted into oblivion by a Meteor Swarm, but the few scrolls he's scribed, sitting in his pouch, would remain completely unharmed. Again, this is By the Book.
Alas, a quick look through and I could not find the page reference to the "1 on save item destruction rule".
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
JLXC
Pie
(12/2/02 12:27:55 pm)
Reply
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Ummm... I have not read a rule that states "When a destructive spell KILLS a person their gear is unaffected"
That failed save thing is for LIVING people with items. When they are Dead those items are then subject to damage and saves like any unattended object.
If we are gonna use the rules, as I have above, then lets stick with them.
Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,
for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup
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Andorax
Orc
(12/2/02 1:10:30 pm)
Reply
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
As I recall aright, the rule doesn't draw the distinction between a surviving target and a slain target. It simply makes reference to the target of the spell failing their save on a natural 1.
I'd see where you were coming from if they intentionally disintegrated the corpse AFTER it had been killed....but I don't really see that the (official) rule doesn't apply to someone killed by the blow.
Put another way...two adventurers are hit by a fireball. One is a fighter with 60 hps. One is a wizard with 30. Both roll a natural 1, and the damage is 50 points.
They both took 50 damage...one was killed, the other lived. Why would one of them have every last posession incinerated, while another *might* have lost one single item? Same fireball...same fire damage. The only difference is that one of the two wasn't tough/lucky/karmic enough to "take it".
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
JLXC
Pie
(12/2/02 1:32:12 pm)
Reply
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Wow. I am SO surprised. I knew many people took 3E to the munchkin extreme.... but keeping items around after spells like Disintegrate and Meteor Swarm? I am humbled at the silliness of this. Wow! Thanks for the replies so far. I had no idea.
I mean no offense here.. to each their own. I just never imagined such a thing and was very surprised. Gimme a break.
Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,
for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup
Edited by: JLXC at: 12/2/02 1:54:05 pm
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