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Infiniti2000
Pie
(12/2/02 1:57:17 pm)
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ezSupporter
Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
To make it seem even worse, disintegrate is a ranged touched attack, ignoring armor. This means that even if it hits that +5 plate mail, it affects the fighter underneath, not the armor. You could increase the "realism" and complicate the combat by targeting objects on the victim (i.e. if it hits the touch AC, but not the real AC it hits the armor; it it hits the real AC, it hits the person, etc.).

JLXC, I'm with you, I don't like it either, but them's the rules. I'd like to hear what the intent and reasoning behind them were. Was it merely to keep from "screwing" high-level PC's? Perhaps, if you lost a 15th level fighter and all of his equipment, would you rather be raises/true resurrected with nothing or roll up a new character, even at 14th level, with all the equipment for the corresponding level?

Also, how does flesh to stone affect everything the victim is carrying, but not disintegrate? Especially consider the title of the spell.

ZansForCans
Pie
(12/2/02 2:25:53 pm)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
The only 'rationalization' I can think of off the top of my head is that perhaps the one thing affected has to be a 'one thing', say in a molecular (or magical) sense. In this case a body could be nuked without affecting any items.

The targeting issue doesn't go away though. I think there is some latitude in the spell description for a DM to avoid the normal implication for a range touched spell in this case, if you want. It says:

Quote:
Only the first creature or object struck can be affected (that is, the ray affects only one target per casting).


If you want a more 'physical' style for this spell, then just rule that someone competely covered with plate (or anything) can't have their body targeted by the spell. If you want to get complicated, you could apply the cover AC bonuses for the touch attack based on how much armor/clothing they are wearing (say, the ray has to hit flesh/un-flesh/scales/etc.).

However, this is magic, so I might just rule that the caster has the ability to 'tune' the ray to hit a body. Otherwise, full plate could always be treated as full cover for such spells.

Someone was hunting for the BTB ruling on this and it's in the PHB, pg. 150 complete with a list of in what order items are affected.



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Tristan DArque
Pie
(12/2/02 2:29:13 pm)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Quote:
Alas, a quick look through and I could not find the page reference to the "1 on save item destruction rule".


PHB p 150, right hand column at the top.

[edit: and Zans and I find the reference at exactly the same time...]

Edited by: Tristan DArque at: 12/2/02 2:30:25 pm
Andorax
Orc
(12/2/02 2:35:38 pm)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
JXLC, before you continue mocking me, I will remind you that I prefaced what I said with BY THE BOOK. I never said how I personally run it (which is, by and large, the same way you do). I was trying to let you know what the "official" rule is, without opinion, bias, or commentary.

And yes, Infiniti2000 has the right of the reason. 3E is as much or more about the "stuff" as it is about the person. A high level PC, without equipment, is nowhere even close to comparable to an "appropriately" equipped PC a level or two lower. Destroying the equipment with the opponent, on a mechanical level, will under-treasure the PCs. Repeated applications of this, coupled with a general 2nd ed. DM desire to not have "magic shops" available, will lead to PCs that are significantly less powerful than the rules, balance, and CR system is assuming them to be.

D&D is not a video game...but the mechanics of it have some superficial resemblances. Some of them are for very good reason...because there are some sound, mechanical game principles that need to be considered. To reason by way of analogy, consider:

In Doom (and all iterative versions thereafter), when you got killed, you started the level over, usually with virtually no stuff. If a portion of the level was virtually unbeatable without the big, powerful weapons, and you had no way to get those more powerful weapons without getting killed, you were hosed. Might as well just quit out and start over. That part of the game assumed a power level that was dependant on the "stuff" you had. You'll find that most well-designed levels have a reasonable ramp-up to decent gear for just this reason.

In Diablo II, think about how it would be without friends, without town portals, and without your body appearing back in town if you quit out. After you've assembled all your "stuff", if you have to go after your corpse without any of it on a restart...do you stand even half a chance? Now assume that the town shops don't sell magic equipment, only regular.



The basic game principles are the same. In order for a balanced character to have sufficient mechanical power to overcome the obstacles that the game system (CR), as well as the module RttToEE, have in store, it requires that the PCs find equipment and gear along the way. They need to increase their power by gaining new and better equipment, and the grand majority of said equipment will come from fallen enemies.

Thus, the system is designed to pre-assume that you'll be able to recover equipment, vast majority of the time, from the foes you face. That's why it's the way it is...by the book.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Thrommel
The DM
(12/2/02 2:50:48 pm)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
{I'd like to hear what the intent and reasoning behind them were.}

I think if you accept the premise of pc's of x level should have y gp in equipment then from a metagame perspective, equipment is another type of 'ability'. It's another measure of power, just like xp, level, or hit points.

Since disintegrate is one of those exceptional insta-kill spells where it doesn't matter how many hit points you have -- you roll a 1, you're dead -- it would be even MORE powerful if it also destroyed all the equipment.

I agree, logically, it doesn't make sense. (Not that I really believe in using logic to explain how a spell works -- it's magic for crying out loud.) But from a metagame perspective, you'd be punishing the victim twice.

Imagine if a spell insta-killed you AND permanently drained 10 Con points. You'd be howling when you got ress'd. I think it's a similar situation with disintegrate and equipment.

-Thrommel, who wonders what the difference is between crying out loud and howling.

JLXC
Pie
(12/2/02 3:12:35 pm)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Andorax. I was NOT trying to mock you dude. I apologize if you felt I was. I know my post was borderline, sorry. I am just trying to get around the idea, and thanks for all your posts, and everyone else too! I got a much better perspective on it. I get knee jerk sometimes. Sorry.

Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,

for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup

Zenon
Pie
(12/3/02 7:30:40 am)
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Re: DM Rant here..... Outer Fane almost finished....
Man, holy-moley!

I drop an innocent rules reference & start a war! I really need to check in more often!

Others have already pointed out everything else I would have said. (BTW, I noticed your ENworld post about the same, take a deep breath and do it the same way you've been doing it.)

If you & your group are having fun the way you do it, that's all that counts.

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