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Grumgarr
Pie
(12/2/02 5:42:22 am)
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Help! Planar Ally warning...too tough?
Well, my group have kicked Hedrack's lily ass, Naquent got sucked dry by Thrommel, Ukemil and his pets got ripped in no time flat, and the drow visitors got neatly beaten unconscious in three rounds - darn those pesky hero-types.
Sooooo...Hedrack managed to flee to the Inner Fane via the Greater Temple - he's gone to warn the First that these pesky do-gooders are about to kick the door in (figuratively speaking) - I'm inclined to think the First leisurely tortures him to death for failing to keep the Fanes free of interfering outsiders - she may Raise him too, but that's a different story...
...with most of the Outer Fane's inhabitants out of the picture, the First regains spells come midnight and calls out some big guns using Greater Planar Ally. She summons a Hezrou demon (I houseruled the Planar Ally spells - they key off both Hit dice AND CR - you need the big spells to get the big bad-asses) - a real nasty one, nastier than I thought - to keep the heoes away from the Inner Fane.
Well, why wouldn't she, now that they're 'bothering' her?
The heroes rest blissfully unaware of the dark summoning going on not far off - and the watchful Dwarven Defender spots trouble when it occurs - the summoned Hezrou finds the party encamped in the Naga lair, with portcullises down.
This beast has a Very Impressive(tm) list of spell-like abililties, all but Gaseous Form (3/day) at will - oh yes, as often as you like.
After opening up with Animate Object (okay, I went for animating the naga statues, one at a time admittedly, but I called them Huge Animated Objects), then a few rounds of Unholy Blight and Chaos Hammer from the darkness beyond the portcullis - the PCs spot the beast but are terrified to approach it - when they finally do its stench (automatic -2 to hit if you made the Fort save) and high natural AC (26), plus spell-like boosts mean it seems almost impossible to hit (okay there were some bad rolls - these PCs are tough) and then damaging it? Half-damage from any blow that trumps its DR.
And a Blasphemy!!! whenever it gets surrounded? Ouch!
My group were just about out of spells after a massive running battle with the Earth Elemental, elite guards, assassins, Heddy, Naquent, Ukemil, drow etc. etc.
I was tempted to go light on them, but they had to flee in terror - I let them go while the Hezrou played with the two drow...
My thought was that the First wanted them kept occupied - paranoid, not able to rest properly - harassed guerilla-style (or big-toad style, whatever).
BUT...where do I draw the line?
I thought the PCs would beat the Hezrou off- force it to Teleport away somewhere to lick its wounds (or have them cured?) then come back for more, but they didn't so much as bloody its nose.
On full strength they'd have far less trouble with it - and I have let them get through the rest of the night, but have I been too kind? Wouldn't the Hezrou keep at them? Allow them no peace?
The players were genuinely despondent about their inability to fight this thing - and I feel that I put the brakes on in allowing them to flee so easily.
What's next? This has been an uncompromising and deadly campaign thus far. How do I keep the respect of the group and not give them the impression I just let them off the hook?
TIA
Grumgarr - whose avatar of Big T says 'and I would have got away with it too, if it hadn't been for you pesky kids!'
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Siobharek 
Orc
(12/2/02 6:20:58 am)
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Re: Help! Planar Ally warning...too tough?
Is there any way, any way at all that the PCs can get away? Or get some of them away? Do they have a teleport scroll, some reduce spells, I dunno - anything? With the Outer Fane out, the kid gloves are off. I think that the PCs chose the worst time and place to rest. They should have 'ported away, because you're right: The First will hunt them down - or rather have his toad demon do it.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Ssendam
Pie
(12/2/02 6:35:42 am)
Reply
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Re: Help! Planar Ally warning...too tough?
Planar Ally can be a devestating spell. It's cool to see that you used some discretion with what can be summoned because that spell can be really nasty and in certain situations, unbalanced when used to full effect. Basically, an evil 12th level cleric, by the rules, can summon a balor; likewise, a good 12th level cleric could summon a planetar.
So the house rule you used is that the summoned creature cannot have a CR greater than it's summoner's level? Is that how it works? That seems like a pretty cool rule. I like that.
Anyway, I don't think you necessarily did the wrong thing. Maybe the timing was a bit off. At least you didn't slaughter them while they were vulnerable. You just made them flee the dungeon, right? I used Planar Ally on my group in a similar situation, but it was Hedrack that did it. Keep in mind that Planar Ally is not just summoning a creature and telling it what to do. There is a bargain made. It's like asking a favor. The tougher the task, the larger reward (or favor) the summoned creature will ask in return.
Have you decided what task was requested of the Hezrou? Like, did the First tell it: "Kill my enemies, and you will be rewarded." Or was it something more like: "I will reward you if you can rid me of these individuals."? If the Hezrou was summoned to kill the party and it struck a bargain with the First, then it's bound to it's task. This makes things very harsh for you as a DM to decide upon, because I cannot see the Hezrou just allowing its prey to flee, especially prey that seems so intimidated of it. Hezrou's are fairly intelligent. It probably knows the PC's are vulnerable right now, which would be the best time for it to kill them, in its frame of mind. 
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Grumgarr
Pie
(12/2/02 6:36:14 am)
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Run Away!! Run Away!!
Siobharek,
They have ONE scroll of teleport (caster level 9) which will get one or two of them out. That's it.
Although they did also talk to Varachan, who explained that he had a stash of booty (for them) in his chamber, including four Refuge sticks...they'd get the party away from the Hezrou, if only to his chamber.
I let them escape him already.
I had the beast toy with the drow while they fled - I think I might liberally sprinkle Deeper Darkness about and have the Hezrou stalk them - don't think that it can track, particularly - how about...
...Hezrou lets them go - they escape through the secret door by the Water Door into the Grinder corridor - Hezzy's got no Track or Scent, so after a round or two of playing he(it?) comes out of the naga corridor and...they're gone - he can't find them easily, so...teleports back to the First (after a couple of tries no doubt) who directed him to the naga room in the first place, for further 'location' instructions...the First can't cast another Locate Person right now so sends him off to search the Outer Fane in its entirety. Hezzy won't find the secret doors, or not right away, so they get to live through the night - come morning they'll find lots of Deeper Darkness and Dawn-of-the-Dead zombies about (I think he has Animate Dead - or is that mostly Devils?).
So they'll know the beast has been busy, and thank the Gods of Light that it didn't find them, and be suitably wary in case it's still about...
...phew
Ssendam, my Planar Ally house-rule works like this:
Each spell has a HD limit - I extend the limit to CR as well, so Lesser Planar Ally can get you the services of a 8HD, CR8 outsider or elemental (max) - Planar Ally up to a 12HD/CR12 and Greater Planar Ally a CR16 or 16HD beastie (or is it 18? - whatever the spell says) - the Hezrou is only 11HD (I think) but is CR14 so it takes the Greater PA spell to call.
If either the CR or HD exceed the spell's limit, that creature is off-limits to the spell.
As written the PA spells are pretty busted - the bargaining side is IMO wide open and needs careful consideration - what would a Planetar want from a lowly 10th level Cleric anyway?
Of course, the First has called this beastie - asked it to keep the PCs away from the Inner Fane by whatever means (for a week?), and it requires no further payment due to the Dark Pact (or whatever it's called) Doomdreamer ability.
I could have gone berky and called a Balor but a) that's a dead party and b) I just painted a Hezrou figure and wanted to use it 
Grumgarr
Edited by: Grumgarr at: 12/2/02 6:55:03 am
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Siobharek
Orc
(12/2/02 6:41:28 am)
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Re: Run Away!! Run Away!!
Hah! The image of them creeping out into the dark, cold corridors of the Fane and run into zombified versions of whatever they killed the day before: I LOVE it! Should be OK. But they should change their priorities so that they get hezzy ASAP.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
 Infiniti2000
Pie
(12/2/02 6:47:45 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Help! Planar Ally warning...too tough?
Have you already defined the request and the reward? Perhaps the risk was ambiguous. Although the First has experience casting planar ally spells, I'm sure, the First is still insane. You could say that the request was to "get rid of the intruders." Now that they have fleed, the Hezrou's job is done. Maybe the reward is Hedrack or one or more of Hedrack's items?
I fear that if the First really goes all out to kill the party it will be a TPK. They likely cannot stand against continued planar ally spells, divinations, etc. With the above, the Hezrou would report "they are no more" and the First might even think t he party dead.
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Grumgarr
Pie
(12/2/02 7:42:51 am)
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Re: Help! Planar Ally warning...too tough?
Infiniti2000
The party have just got their first 'the clock is REALLY ticking on doomsday' warning from Varachan - who is terrified that the Champion has been found and gone to the old Temple. The party know they have only a few days (at most) to Stop the Evil Plot and Save the World.
The First has lost her privacy-buffers (the CRM and Outer Fane) so sends in a heavy. She doesn't have to worry about payment due to her Dark Pact ability.
But she's not too concerned about killing off these 'pesky kids' - she's intent on the forthcoming destruction of everything - they're a detail.
I think of the First as a real cackling schizophrenic (behavioural rituals - sees connections in trivial things - washes her hands before and after Everything - always starts with the shortest flaying knife) kind of loon. She knows if The Plan comes off they'll be snuffed shortly - only she'd love to do it herself, nice and slooooowly - but her rational parts know she just has to keep them from spoiling things for a few more days.
Her sadist portions though Want them to reach the Inner Fane - she Wants to Hurt them personally. So she sends a beast not to kill, but to delay, half-hoping they'll defeat it and come to her (hence her choice of a tough but not unbeatable demon?). The pact binds the Hezrou to 'keep them from reaching the Inner Fane for a week, by whatever means'
So the Hezrou (let's give him a name, he's got feelings too - seething hatred, lust for destruction, all the good stuff), Barney, (the miniature's painted kind of purple) has a week to enjoy taunting and playing with these mortals - he's in no rush - they already fear him, which he likes - if he can't find them again soon, he'll plague the First (who'll command a lackey - raised Hedrack or the Third - to Serve the Demon as bloodhound - that's a nice slap for Hedrack. come to think of it).
I think the First will raise Hedrack (not immediately - tomorrow) and send him back to the outer Fane to make sure these intruders are gone for good - if he can't deal with them, he deserves to die.
I've given Heddy a Master Ring (per the BoVD thread in BoB) and I think the First will relieve him of it. I'd like the First to make Hedrack wear a slave ring, so that she can punish any further failings (she'd prefer to deal out punishment personally, but she's busy planning the world's destruction - a girl can't be everywhere at once). But maybe she'll give the Master Ring to the Hezrou, just for spite....oh yes!
Grumgarr - who sometimes wishes he could tell the players about all the backbiting and nastiness perpetrated by their foes on each other.
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Grumgarr
Pie
(12/2/02 7:51:58 am)
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XP for the Hezrou?
I wondered (hypothetically, honest) how much XP the Hezrou (CR14) should get for routing character of levels:
1 x 9
1 x 10
2 x 11
1 x 13
and whether to give it a character class or just make it Bigger 
Grumgarr - who thinks Hezrou are big cuddly toady-woadies (barring the stench, that is)
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Andorax
Orc
(12/2/02 8:11:06 am)
Reply
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Re: XP for the Hezrou?
Sounds like you're playing it in an interesting, well thought-out manner. Cudos for that, and by all means keep it up. I like the idea of it stalking through the Outer Fane looking for them.
Honestly, I'd think that Hedrack wouldn't have been killed...just made to experience lots and lots of pain. Perhaps he was handed over to the torturer for a while?
One possability occurs to me. The party fought the CRM, and kept coming. The party had Hedrack's lackeys sent after them...and kept coming. They seem to THRIVE on adversity and take every last attack against them as an insult that must be avenged. So the First sent the Hezrou specifically BECAUSE it'll egg them on to come after him personally.
Besides, he needs to keep them busy so they aren't heading for the Recovered Temple where the actual, important matters are proceeding.
Keep it up...see if you can find other ways to have the Hezrou harass the party. Definately summon the dretch horde the next time he sees the PCs, to keep them busy. Don't neglect Summon Swarm either...I found out last night just how nasty that particular spell is.
Oh, and as a final note:
Lesser Planar Ally: Up to 8 HD
Planar Ally: Up to 16 HD
Greater Planar Ally: Up to 24 HD
Even using it as a CR bound as well as a HD bound, it's still within a normal Planar Ally.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Ssendam
Pie
(12/2/02 8:48:15 am)
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Re: XP for the Hezrou?
 Pretty interesting plot you have going there, Grum. I'm a little confused on something though. You keep refering to the First as a gal, but I seem him being described as male in the module. The Third is a gal though. Not sure if you've mixed the two up or just changed them around to your liking.
Something to consider with the Third and her Dark Pact ability. This is something she can only use once a week. Don't you think she would reserve this ability to use only when she summons the nastiest of fiends? I mean, a Hezrou is tough, but NOT the best she could summon.
I know you don't want to wipe the party out, and that is not what I am suggesting, but it's hard to imagine she would use one of her most powerful abilities without maximizing it to full effect. I'd be more inclined to think that she would just opt to use a standar Planar Ally to summon the hezrou with the idea you were talking about - how she just wanted the thing to harass them, and probably expects them to kill the thing, thus nullifying payment for services rendered. JMHO.
Edited by: Ssendam at: 12/2/02 8:50:05 am
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deafdungeonmasterRIT
Orc
(12/2/02 9:46:17 am)
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that is my question
What is Hedrack's relations with the Triad? The book never really mention strongly about their relation.
If anything, I feel that Hedrack relucantly works with the Triad, thinking of them as completely insane and chaotic, having no known structures. Only Hedrack in that fane actually doing something productive.
The First and the Third personality are not clearly defined. What is their role in Outer Fane? That is one thing I consistenly struggles with!
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Ssendam
Pie
(12/2/02 10:18:44 am)
Reply
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Re: that is my question
deaf, the First, Second and Third are the highest up in the very small clergy of Tharizdun. They are doomdreamers, but they are the strongest of the doomdreamers and the most highly revered. Judging from what Hedrack says in his journal, he desires to become one of the doomdreamers. It's like his chief goal. I don't think he looks upon the Triad with any disrespect at all. If anything, Hedrack probably most resents that he has not been accepted into their ranks yet.
If you really think about it, Hedrack could become one of the strongest doomdreamers there is, considering that he has more raw cleric levels than any of them and is only 1 caster level behind The First.
The First and Third are not concerned with the Outer Fane. They spend their time communing with the Dreamingstone in the Black Spike. IMO, they are supposed to remain detached and oblivious as to the PC's presence until they actually become aware of them in the Inner Fane.
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Azalnubizar 
Pie
(12/3/02 1:17:33 am)
Reply
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XP for the Hezrou...
Well, I think the Hezrou should get some XP, that's a good idea...
since it is CR 14, I'd take him as level 14 for XPs.
The group is EL:
13 (1x lvl 13)
+1.5 (1x lvl 11)
+2 (1x lvl 11, 1x lvl 10)
+.125 (1x lvl 9)
Total: 16.625 = 17
XPs for the Hezrou (since he won - you said it could have killed them if it wanted then): 12.600 !!
let's assume, that he is right inbetween his actual and the next level (giving him 98,000 XP ). Adding 12,600 XP = 110,000 XP. Making him one level higher.
Now how to use it on the Hezrou. I think he would benefit most from a character class. But then, it would be nice roleplaying, if you'd let the players know (maybe in a dream or something) that the "thing" actually feeded on their fear - making it bigger and stronger (then I would give it one additional HD).
What you might think about as well is, when a demon advances, does it learn new spell-like abilities? Anyway, I would recommend the BoVD for if you got to choose a feat for him. Since it is already pretty hard for your players, you might not want to add additional spell-like abilities...
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Azalnubizar
Pie
(12/3/02 1:33:58 am)
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Hezrou tactics / too tough?
I don't think that the Hezrou is too tough, by the way.
You just played it quite well and your players where surprised and out of resources. (That's their first Hezrou, isn't it?)
About the pact/deal with the hezrou. You could make up anything - but I think I would not have used her Dark Pact but a Planar Gate as well.
Maybe she did not have/did not want to offer so much for the hezrou. She told him that he should kill them. But since she did not offer that much, they could not agree, that the demon needs to kill them as soon as possible.
Probably the demon enjoys vacation from the Abyss. He just likes to play with the PCs a bit before actually devouring them... that's why he let them go...
With hist Spot/Listen he should easily be able to track fleeing PCs toward their next hide out. They may spot/hear him, but chances are pretty good, I think (look at his Move Silent / Hide !)
Since it is a massive humanoid toad, I'd give him the abililty to swim pretty well, as well. This means he can move around the lake in the Crater Ridge Mines.
Maybe he lost them through the Crater Ridge mines, maybe he watched them all the time (feeding on their fear, giving them bad dreams and increasing his HD by 1 over night).
Whatever you choose, once they start up again, he is behind them, waiting to strike... He probably would not strike to kill, he would strike to cripple!
I think he would love to use summon swarm, animate object and summon Tanar'ri (4d10 dretches!).
If ever attacked directly, don't forget his blink ability as well, giving him 1/2 attacks, then 1/2 damage of these attacks as well.
He probably will teleport away from direct confrontation, because why kill it fast when he can kill 'em slow?
You could even make it survive until after the inner fane - freeing it, when it's summoner dies and have him advance further while pestering the PCs.
Make him an "all the time thorn in the side" who doesn't want a direct confrontation...
Azal
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Grumgarr
Pie
(12/3/02 3:08:58 am)
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Re: Hezrou tactics / too tough?
First of all - thanks to everyone for some great suggestions
I love this board.
Andorax, yep, Summon Swarm - mmhmmm, I hope to use it to define the battlefield, steer the party in certain directions - it's really nasty when stacked, one behind the other, making a ganutlet of damage to run through (but some of the group can fly over it).
I checked the Planar Ally spells out last nght - even using CR and HD to define the limits the Greater one still allows just about Anything - yeeeeeech! That plus Dark Pact??? Ow.
Ssendam, the First as a woman - mea culpa - when spilling the beans as Varachan, I called the First 'she' so I've switched genders for the First and Third.
The Dark Pact - it probably is best for the First to save it for maximum effect, but it takes a while, has to be performed at night in a temple with a sacrifice, so she may not get another chance if they go gunning for the Inner Fane soon (as I suspect they will).
Azal, I think I >might< add another HD to Barney and give him a Vile (or similarly nasty) feat from the BoVD as a 'reward' - particulary if the First gets hers and Barney's then free on the Prime with nothing but time (and mortals) to kill.
Besides, I haven't had the opportunity to 'improve' any of the bad guys yet...of course, from a statistics point of view, the party were pretty whacked when he defeated them, so he should get a reduced XP award, but what the hell (pun intended) - it's not like I had an XP total in mind for him to begin with
No game this week - I'll let you know in a couple of weeks how things pan out.
Grumgarr
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Siobharek
Orc
(12/3/02 4:12:02 am)
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Re: Hezrou tactics / too tough?
About the XP: Heddy, sorry Barney's there as a result of the First's great networking skills, so you don't have to give out XP for him. Heh, in a way that would be the ultimate poo-poo. Not only does Barney make the PCs scream like girls and run, he doesn't come with a built-in prize. That's funny...
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Grumgarr
Pie
(12/3/02 4:18:14 am)
Reply
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Re: Hezrou tactics / too tough?
Siobharek - yeah, point taken about XP for defeating Barney...this isn't just a Summoned monster though, it's a long-term, dangerous problem, and a Summoning spell wouldn't get a beast of nearly this power - I think XP for the gang is in order, if and when they finally defeat him.
...but what I meant by my last post was XP awarded TO Barney for kicking the PCs' collective butts (which started as a kind of joke, but is becoming more appealing) ;-)
Grumgarr - who wants a Hezrou character for Christmas, but not as much as a plush beholder
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Siobharek
Orc
(12/3/02 4:22:14 am)
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Re: Hezrou tactics / too tough?
Oh. Right. Yeah, it's funny - classed monsters are easy to advance with XP, but are demons in for the same kind of rewards. In this case, I'd say yes. Most high-level parties wouldn't squeal and run, so making them do that oughta entitle it for a biggie. By all means advance it 1 HD, if you think the group's up for it.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
madfox
Orc
(12/3/02 6:23:59 am)
Reply
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Re: Hezrou tactics / too tough?
Quote:
About the XP: Heddy, sorry Barney's there as a result of the First's great networking skills, so you don't have to give out XP for him.
Actually, that would be the case if the First summoned him in the same encounter as in which the PCs faced the First. In that case the First would lose a spell of her daily allotment and would be somewhat less of a challenge to defeat. If the PCs meet a summoned creature without the summoner anywhere nearby without even meeting the summoner before he can prepare new spells, you should award full xp for defeating the creature. In that case after all, it is more like an independent encounter. Unless that creature is not defeated before the end of the duration of the spell, in which case you should reduce the xp somewhat.
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Siobharek
Orc
(12/3/02 6:57:46 am)
Reply
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Re: Hezrou tactics / too tough?
Hmm Good point. I even played with the same line of reasoning when I DM'ed The Speaker in Dreams. You're right madfox. Barney should give the PCs xp when and if he goes down.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Andorax
Orc
(12/3/02 7:44:27 am)
Reply
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Re: Hezrou tactics / too tough?
Ok...a few thoughts:
1) A Hezrou should not receive XP as if it were a 14th level character (CR 14). It should receive XP as if it were a character equal to it's ECL (which, on a quick guess, I'd put at around 20). ECL tells you what it is the "equivalent" of, in terms of if it were a PC and the party were the enemies.
As well, it should get only half of what it would normally get (not much), since the encounter was, essentially, a prepared ambush on weakened foes low on resources. I believe you also said that, had they been at full, they would have blasted it to oblivion.
2) Demons are part of that lovely grey area where you can gain advancement by HD, or by class, or both. I tend to think that advancement by HD tends to come through either many long years or, more quickly, by consuming great sources of power (such as eating powerful PCs). There was one of the FR novels, IIRC, that described a pair of Barghests that were here on the Prime busily consuming whoever they could get their hands on because they were trying to work their way up to becomming Greater Barghests. While not Demons per se, the example fits.
Class levels, however, come from experience...and he's getting plenty hunting these PCs down. What seems more appropriate to you? Fighter from combat skills? Sorceror from using magic extensively? Ranger from tracking, stalking and hunting them? If you want to give him a level in a class, find one that suits your needs, purposes, and preferences.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
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