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Author
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Comment
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Azalnubizar 
Pie
(12/3/02 7:52:18 am)
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Re: Hezrou tactics / too tough?
I might agree with andorax about the classes/HD.
I do not agree with the Hezrou being an equivalent of a Lvl 20 character. I do DM a group of 17-19 lvl characters and they do sweep the floor with Hezrous... (I would prefer them not to, but what can I do??)
In game terms - a lvl 14 NPC is supposed to be CR 14. Therefore one could assume, that a CR 14 monster is assumed to be Lvl 14 (for experience points). If you look at the statistics a Hezrou has, he is not as good as a 20th level character - far from, I think. He would match about a 14th lvl. I think this would be about right.
You are right so, as to give him only half XP for encountering the party on a rest, very low on resources. You might only give him half XP for that - but I would advance him anyway :-)
Azal
Edited by: Azalnubizar at: 12/3/02 7:54:40 am
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Andorax
Orc
(12/3/02 9:26:18 am)
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Re: Hezrou tactics / too tough?
Azalnubizar, would you allow a player to run a PC Hezrou (alignment issues aside) in a party of 14th level characters? We're not trying to figure out what it's the combat-value equivalent of...we're trying to figure out what it's the character-equivalent of.
Perhaps 20 is too high, but usually ECL is significantly higher than CR, especially for things that have a host of at-will powers.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Tristan DArque
Pie
(12/3/02 9:35:12 am)
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Re: Hezrou CR/ECL
I agree, and looking at the ECLs for high-CR monsters in MM2, I can't see it being much lower than 20.
Although I do think there's a problem with this whole ECL thing. What's the basis for the difference? because Azal's logic does actually work (if a 10th level human character is CR10, why isn't a CR10 monster the equivalent of a 10th level human character?)
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Siobharek 
Orc
(12/3/02 10:43:30 am)
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Re: Hezrou CR/ECL
The whole thing revolves around PC/NPC. As an NPC, the Hezrou is supposed to come in, blast everything, and die - the odds are stacked against it, as it will face 4 CR 14 monsters. As a PC, the Hezrou will get to use its humongous abilities again and again and again. I mean, blink at will?! You'd never allow a 14th-level character with such an ability. Therefore (and probably because of a lot of other things), CR and ECL do not mix very well.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
madfox
Orc
(12/4/02 12:38:20 am)
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Re: Hezrou CR/ECL
Or in more simpler terms: CR is designed for ONE encounter, while ECL applies to a whole day. One encounter will at most last 10 rounds and hence having a spell like ability that can be used at will, will make little difference compared to an ability that can be used 3 times a day.
This indeed means that some creatures simply are not feasible as PC races. The special abilities make it very powerful, but the lack of hit points would reduce them to ashes in seconds at higher level.
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Azalnubizar
Pie
(12/4/02 1:04:28 am)
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Re: Hezrou CR/ECL
Well, Andorax, since I'm not a friend of playing monsters in my group, I would not allow it, I think.
I you set that aside, I think I would.
as Siobharek and madfox already pointed out, it is hard to compare CR and level. It might be unbalancing having one creature with all that at will powers.
On the other hand, the DCs and CL of these powers are below a group of 14th level characters. And then, a player could easily call such a creature via a gate spell and make a deal with it - then it would be with the group anyway...
ok - I do agree that having all the at will power are unbalancing, but that doesn't help it at higher levels. I would still make it level 14 for receiving XP.
Azal
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