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ZansForCans
Pie
(12/2/02 9:41:42 am)
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What do EEE clerics know?
My party has captured Gren (Moathouse) and is about to port her back to Hommlet for serious questioning. Assuming the cult memebers and/or Jaroo don't figure this out and get her back or kill her first, they could be privy to some juicy info.

How have you dealt with knowledge of EEE vs. big T clerics? Do they think they are releasing their god as well, or are they not much more than lackeys? What would one say when asked about the 'other' symbol (the obex)? I'm leaning toward it just being a rank sort of differentiation from an EEE cleric's point of view. Other thoughts?

And if you have any general thoughts about how much Gren in particular would know, I'm happy to have more minds at work :)

Thanks!



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smetzger
Pie
(12/2/02 9:48:13 am)
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Re: What do EEE clerics know?
1) there is a Knowledge(Religion) check for the PCs to know that the Obex is a Holy Symbol of big T. Therefore, I believe all the EE Clerics would know that they ultimately follow big T.
2) I don't think they would know that the goal is to release big T, or at least don't know that its gonna happen soon. Think of the EE Cleric's as initiates in a highly secretive cult. Basically these guys are evil and are bent on climbing the ranks of the cult and learning more and more of its dark secrets.

Surfal2001
Pie
(12/3/02 8:42:38 am)
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Re: What do EEE clerics know?
I can't see allowing EEE clerics to know about big T. That makes it too easy to find out early in the adventure. Gren's virtually set up for capture, and if your PCs are on the ball and don't kill her in a bloody rage (like mine did :lol ) then they'll get info out of her. OTOH, the EEE clerics are certainly evil-doers hungry for power, and may know that there's more going on than meets then Eye :p , just not what it is.

smetzger
Pie
(12/4/02 6:45:20 am)
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Re: What do EEE clerics know?
Well its only a Knowledge(Religion) DC 18 to recognize the Obex as a symbol of the big T. Most parties will thus recognize the Obex for what it is as soon as they see it. I would think that any EE Cleric who saw a higher ranking Cleric with the Obex instead of the triangle would be curious enough to take 20 on his Knowledge(Religion) check, thus pretty much insuring that he would find out about the Big T. He may not know how the big T fits into the picture, but he would definantly know that the higher ranking people in his cult pay closer homage to big T than they do to the EE.

Infiniti2000
Pie
(12/4/02 7:02:53 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: What do EEE clerics know?
You cannot take 20 (or even 10) on a knowledge check. You either know it or you don't. Clerics of the EEE might have asked others, though, when their individual checks failed. Gren, for instance, could ask Geynor Ton about the meaning of Ysslansh's obex holy symbol.

Trithereon
Pie
(12/4/02 7:24:08 am)
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Re: What do EEE clerics know?
On pg. 4 it says:

Quote:
"Clerics of the Elder Elemental Eye are his (Tharizdun's) clerics, although sometimes they don't realize it. For example, drow clerics introduced to the religion of Elemental Evil did not know that they truely served Tharizdun. Event he clerics of the original Temple of Elemental Evil did not refer to the Elder Elemental Eye. They believed that they revered only the evil aspect of the elements themselves (or the demon Zuggtmoy)"


It also says on pg. 161:

Quote:
"So, despite the fact that many of the worshipers of the Elder Elemental Eye do not know it, and despite the fact that the two deities have different granted domains, Tharizdun and the Elder Elemental Eye are the same deity."


This may seem like two contradicting statements, unless you distinguish between worshipers and clerics. Clerics are more then worshipers, they are active agents of the deity with direct links to that god's divine power. The EEE clerics use the less dreadful aspect of the EEE to attract non-divine spellcasting worshipers and their devotions.

So, only some clerics of EEE are not aware that they are actually clerics of Tharizdun. The clerics mentioned above were not clerics of EEE, but clerics of other deities (Iuz, Lolth and Zuggtomy). If I recall correctly, Monte himself said on this board that all the clerics from the CRM were aware of the connections between EEE and Tharizdun.

IMC, I explained that clerics of EEE believe that Tharizdun, if freed from his prison, will remake the world in his own elemental image (a world fused with the four elemental planes. A world full of floods, volcanoes, tornadoes and earthquakes of which they are the favored mortal rulers). On the other hand, clerics of Tharizdun desire the absolute oblivion which their master will unleash upon the universe. They are sick people who hate themselves and the world so much that only the complete destruction of all is a sufficient revenge for their imagined mortal injustices and suffering.

I think that the Geynor's Journal and the moathouse's Dark Obelisk are two pretty big clues that there is some connection between EEE and Tharizdun. Only the most apathetic players won't discover early on that there is more going on then just some EEE clerics hanging out near Hommlet.

Edited by: Trithereon at: 12/4/02 7:28:31 am
ZansForCans
Pie
(12/4/02 9:02:06 am)
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Re: What do EEE clerics know?
These were in fact the two bits I had been struggling with. Thanks for pointing out that little bit (worshipers vs. clerics) that I was glossing over. Your explaination makes good sense.

After I started this thread, I happened to reread Geynor's journal in preparation for our session and remembering this time that he was only a EEE cleric, realized that MC did intend for them to know quite a bit. Now it will be easier to decide what Gren herself knows and what she is 'willing' under certain persuations to give up.

Thanks!



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smetzger
Pie
(12/4/02 9:11:35 am)
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Re: What do EEE clerics know?
Infiniti
Although, you cannot retry a Knowledge check you can take 20. Taking 20 can be taken for any skill that doesn't have a penalty for failure. The common explanation of taking 20 "Its like rolling a 1, then a 2, then a 3, etc on up to 20", is just an illustration, it is part of the rules.

If you want to house rule it thats fine, and makes alot of sense, but its not part of the official rules.

Infiniti2000
Pie
(12/4/02 9:25:46 am)
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ezSupporter
Knowledge Skill
It's not a houserule, it's how I see the rule. The failure in this case is that you do not know the information. It cannot be retried.

Quote:
Retry: No. The check represents what the character knows, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let the character know something the character never learned in the first place. - SRD

Tristan DArque
Pie
(12/4/02 11:19:42 am)
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Re: What do EEE clerics know?
I'm with Infiniti on this one. You can't take 20 if there's a consequence for failure (FAQ), and the consequence for failure in the case of a Knowledge check is that you don't know the information and can't retry. I think it's implied in the rules (without any need for a house rule) that you can't take 20 on any skill that doesn't allow retries. Taking 20 is retrying: it represents using a skill over and over again until you succeed (FAQ) which isn't possible if it's a skill you only get one go at.

Also, allowing players to take 20 on knowledge checks devalues the skill and would mean that DCs (including published DCs in adventures) would have to be increased significantly in a relatively meaningless way - because almost every occasion on which someone needs or wants to use a knowledge skill is one where he or she could take 20. to take as an example the very subject we're discussing, allowing people to take 20 on Knowledge (Religion) would mean that anyone with 1 rank in the skill would know the meaning of these symbols, if they sat down and thought about it for a few minutes.

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