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maddman75 
Pie
(12/3/02 1:48:00 pm)
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Good characters hosed?
Hey all - something that occured to me after my first session. Out of the five players, I've got two neutral characters. There are a lot of spots, especially inside the temples/fanes, that are unhallowed and will give good characters serious problems.
In effect, I don't want to punish players for having a good alignment! I was thinking about maybe saying a character that becomes evil becomes an NPC and joins the cult (if in an area controlled by it), and neutrals have a penalty on saves vs any kind of insanity or mental control by the forces of EEE/Big T., representing that they are more vulnerable to his dark temptations.
What do you think? Is this too heavy handed?
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morbiczer
Pie
(12/3/02 3:27:36 pm)
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Re: Good characters hosed?
You say that you don't want to punish good characters. Why do you want then to punish neutral characters?
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maddman75
Pie
(12/3/02 5:04:58 pm)
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Re: Good characters hosed?
Because good characters are already punished by the multiple Protection from Good, Unhallow, and other effects that are throughout the module. Just want to keep things on an even keel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -- Buddha<BR><BR>
"Nothing's a cliche when it's happening to you." -- Max Payne |
Belial
Pie
(12/3/02 8:22:32 pm)
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Re: Good characters hosed?
Those areas under the constant effect vs good also give an XP bonus.
One option would be to only award the XP bonus to those PC's affected by it.
Belial.
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Azalnubizar 
Pie
(12/4/02 12:56:55 am)
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Re: Good characters hosed?
Belial is right, but on the other hand, it is harder for the neutrals as well, if the good paladin is somehow hindered.
Have been thinking about the same problem for quite some time. Whenever I let my players run loose, I come up with a group playing 80% chaotic neutral.
This might have to do with my players, but also with the system. I think it is a good idea to either give a neutral character a -2 to all saves versus mental influence from evil or you do it the other way around (+2 for the good ones).
This is about the same as you get from a protection from good. So you might want to give them an item, that has a permanent protection from evil but only affects good creatures.
I think, that this might go through the whole system. I think it is a good idea, to give the neutrals a malus on their saves for being influenced. Maybe not all the neutrals. Depending on the type:
chaos and law get +1 influencing neutral and -1 influencing each other. good and evil as well. Only True neutral (and I mean really true neutral like those of the druids are not influence by any of these)
this could be used for all social checks as well as mental influencing spells (like suggestion including their save DCs).
CE vs LG -2;
CE vs NG 0;
CE vs CG 0;
CE vs LN 0;
CE vs NN +2 or 0;
CE vs CN +2;
CE vs LE 0;
CE vs NE +2;
CE vs CE +2;
it might make it a bit more complex (which I normally am not really a friend of), could represent the goods a bit more.
If you want to keep it from complexity, just gives goods -2 on social skills vs evil and a +2 on saves vs evil spells that mentally influence (description of the spell). Do not forget to give the same to evil vs. good, though.
To make it round, you should do the same with chaotic and lawful, where we are back at the above mentioned system.
Do not forget - there are already a few things/places in there where the good benefit as well. Like the talisman of pure good in the inner fane, that my group could not use at all.
So, these are just some thoughts...
greetings
Azal
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maddman75
Pie
(12/4/02 6:11:00 am)
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Re: Good characters hosed?
I think that may be a better route, giving the good characters a +2 on saves versus any kind of insanity or corruption influence of big T. I dunno about doing the same for law/chaos...should they stack? So a LG character gets +4? I guess that would be acceptable.
Thanks for the advice! I wish every module had a board like this behind it!
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Taxman66
Pie
(12/4/02 6:42:45 am)
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Re: Good characters hosed?
If you haven't already started (not counting replacement characters) and are using point buy for ability creation then you could provide a few (2 or 4) extra points for good characters.
This seems less arbitrary than a constant additional penalty for neutrals or a constant additional bene for goods.
Another idea, particularly if you have players who will write good on their sheets but actually play neutrals, is to provide additional 'help' occasionally for the goods.
This could come in many formats including:
Support from good temples or individuals ($, discounts on services/items the temple could supply, information, et...)
Divine intervention of various forms (Anything from clues via dreams, to assitance in recovering from something particularly nasty, to perhaps an outright bacon saving).
etc...
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Lastly and when dealing with situations like this carrots are better than sticks, IMO.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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Trithereon
Pie
(12/4/02 6:46:30 am)
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Re: Good characters hosed?
I try to make up for what suffering good-aligned players may experience through roleplay rewards. Good aligned players are backed by good-aligned institutions. I have two good-aligned players in my group: a human cleric of Pelor and an elven wizard. Both of these players get all sorts of help from friends, families and institutions (church and wizard guild, respectively).
The players roleplay honest people who are generous, kind and merciful. The church of Pelor has been a huge supporter of the group as a whole, but to the cleric specifically. Likewise, the elf's family has been generous and helpful in his quests, and to his chosen companions.
My chaotic neutral cleric of Olidimmara gets a little miffed that his temple isn't as helpful. However, he doesn't do anything for them either. The player has come to realize that while he is free from the moral responsibility (and magic hazards) that comes from being good-aligned that he also does not benefit from many of the good-aligned social institutions because he's percieved as selfish and untrustworthy.
I suggest that you not punish the player's neutral or evil alignment with game mechanics but with roleplay. NPCs may sense their moral aloofness (or hear rumors of their callous, hard-hearted behavior) and then tend to not trust them, or worse to have nothing to do with them. If neutral, or evil, players try to "bluff" that they moral, good-natured people then remember to allow the NPC's a Sense Motive check. People who are morally neutral or evil tend to show it through everyday words and deeds, unless they are trying to "put on a kind face". Alignments are not only evident in dungeons and in the wilderness, but can often be sensed by people around dinner tables and barber shops just by the turn of a phrase, mood or body language.
When someone writes "evil", or "neutral" on their sheet, I assume they mean it. If they want to fool NPCs into thinking that he's really a "good guy" (which he isn't) then I figure that he's actively trying to Bluff someone. Otherwise, his true nature tends to sneak out in small emotional quirks and body language. I never try to let player hide behind his character record sheet. Evil is as evil does.
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 Infiniti2000
Pie
(12/4/02 6:47:33 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Good characters hosed?
I don't think that good characters are hosed. Given the percentage of good characters in your party, however, you should modify the ad hoc experience point adjustments. Keep in mind that good characters can affect all the evil ones in the module similarly so it all balances out.
YMMV, but most importantly, the neutral characters will likely need to keep reevaluating their goals throughout the campaign. When things gets really tough, why would a neutral character keep fighting? Someone had a campaign where Hedrack defeated the party like four times in a row...wouldn't a neutral character give up or join the other side, or at least have the tendency to? This complicates things drastically and if played well it should make for a very interesting campaign.
IMC, I forbid my players to select chaotic neutral or any evil. Two still chose neutral, and their commitment to the "cause" will be sorely tested. They have yet to be handed a defeat (we really only just started), but I hope to see what their reactions will be when I ask them to justifying continuing the mission. I do what I can to help them out, by providing plot elements to keep neutral characters motivated, but I want to make sure they understand their own reasons. This may seem like I am unfair to neutral characters...maybe so. But, riding the fence like that sometimes makes things unfair.
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Zagig
Pie
(12/4/02 12:48:02 pm)
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Re: Good characters hosed?
I think Trithereon's idea is spot one. Neutral characters are always going to miss out on the benefits that good characters receive. This also applies to trust from the regular person. IMC, the CG character (who is being played essentially CN) is not entirely trusted by anybody in Rastor and not entirely by her own party. I have had to create a plot line for the LN character in order to keep him around, otherwise he was gone. However, I award role-playing experience so all this is very important IMC. If you do very little role-playing, then perhaps you might want to try something else.
Zag ig
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