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Kenmis
Here for a while
(12/21/02 6:59:59 am)
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Saving the elemental Swords
One of my charactors is a Paladin, and he is currently weilding the Sword of Water. The party has figured out that the altars empower the swords, so inherently the sword is evil.

The player wants to "redeem" the sword somehow, and also make it holy (he likes the idea of a holywater shooting sword).

What processes do you all recomend to do this?

A donation of gold and a re-dedication at the temple of Heironious in Verbonoc? (spelling changed in IMC, heh).

A XP cost?

I could easily see this sword becoming the paladins' "special weapon" a-la the book of hollowed might variant paladin. I like that idea, so i'm trying to think of the best way to make this possible.

Kenmis

Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(12/21/02 7:06:03 am)
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Re: Saving the elemental Swords
I can't help you too much with how to go about it - but spending xp and gold commensurate with creating a new weapon - minus 20% perhaps - sounds good.

But a weapon that shoots holy water?! You might want to think that one through carefully. He's really gonna get a powerful attack vs. undead and evil outsiders. I'm not saying you shouldn't: Just be careful.

Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Infiniti2000
Here for a while
(12/21/02 9:15:46 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: Saving the elemental Swords
I can appreciate the worthy goal of the paladin, but it still doesn't seem right. The sword is not intelligent so "redeeming" it seems a little awkward. Also, it's technically an unholy sword of Tharizdun (not unholy power, but tied to the altar). Would the Paladin agree with a similar ruling, in the future, if say his sword was captured and then converted to be an unholy sword of Hextor? I doubt it, so you shouldn't do it to Tharizdun.

However, if you still wish to go this route, I suggest one of the following:
1. Miracle, not wish.
2. 500XP (similar XP to atonement), plus the full cost of the sword and the time to make one.
3. It would not shoot holy water. Egads!

JLXC
Here for a while
(12/21/02 10:39:28 am)
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Re: Saving the elemental Swords
Shooting holy water once per day seems outrageous to some of you? Egads man! Loosen the Sphincters huh?

I looked at my parties GP totals vs. the DMG guidelines and discovered they have less than HALF of reccomended and they were going up a level which would have made it even more behind.

I had the "Gods" whom the party is involved with send in divine dreams of comfort and support and when the party awoke some of their equipment was improved. Happened in Greek stories all the time so no biggie. The Fire sword and the Water sword were enhanced and Removed from the connection of the Evil god. Made Tharizdun even more miffed but no biggie.

Why is shooting holy water once a day such a big deal. My entire party has (as do most in the 3E world it seems) Heward's Handy Haversacks with 10 of everything it seems, including holy water. Don't yours?

The Paladin showed a real interest in something in the game. It's not game breaking, or inherently un-Paladin. Why such opposition? I'm curious?

Needing a 9th level Miracle to do it... Jesus folks. Talk about EXTREME. He could just have a new better sword for a Miracle. It just seems a lot about nothing. The module is hard enough don't you think?

Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,

for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup

deafdungeonmasterRIT
Here for a while
(12/21/02 11:18:05 am)
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Hmm
Water Sword, shootingHoly Water.... at Imix?????

Beautiful image!!!


I said that he should have that kind of swords, which make him a moving target in the eyes of Hedrack!!!

Infiniti2000
Here for a while
(12/21/02 11:56:15 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: Saving the elemental Swords
No laxative for me, thanks. ;)

Creating holy water is not cheap. Sure, allow it if you want, but consider what will happen. How much extra damage does the holy water do over the 3d6? How much water comes out (a 50-ft range remember)? Can it be collected? Can you collect, say, 20 vials a day (i.e. 500gp worth)? Or, do you have to special rule that it can't be collected, yada yada yada...Whatever, my only point was caution. I see it as potentially game breaking, but we're not talking about my campaign here. It's up to Kenmis to decide.

Perhaps miracle is extreme. On the other hand, maybe not. You are talking about taking a holy artifact from one deity and converting it to a holy artifact of another. Well, maybe artifact isn't the right word, but you know what I mean. The deities aren't even closely aligned, they are opposite (CE vs LG). If you make this an easy thing to do, it had better be possible to convert a holy sword, particularly the new holy water shooting sword, to an unholy sword of the same type.

Btw, if you follow the guidelines (at least) of wish, you can get a magical item worth no more than 15,000gp. I won't bother figuring out the cost of the holy water shooting longsword, but I'd wager it would be a lot more.

The module is not hard enough that I would change the Sword of Water into a Holy Sword of Holy Water Shooting without considering the ramifications. Perhaps this would work in yours or someone else's campaign, but I'm not sure it would work in mine. I would agree that it is okay if (1) the Sword of Water shot Unholy Water, and (2) The sword was not tied directly to the altar.

JLXC
Here for a while
(12/21/02 2:52:47 pm)
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Re: Saving the elemental Swords
I wasn't suggesting a lesson in "how many vials of holy water fly 50' " heh.

I was saying that if the sword shoots holy water once a day for the same damage and such as the regular ability, the only difference would be that it would harm some forms of Regeneration from demons and such, and maybe do a little extra damage to those who take extra from holy water.

I was not trying to imply the Paladin should get to shoot a "Stream of Holy Water equal to 20 vials" or some other garbage. heh. Just changing the effect of it a little would be enough. :)

Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,

for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup

Zenon
Here for a while
(12/21/02 8:13:26 pm)
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Re: Saving the elemental Swords
Well, a lot of DM's (and players) aren't too happy about the destruction of the swords that happens after the breaking of the altars.

If one of my players would have approached me about being able to "save" one of the swords, I would probably do the following:

Give them an XP cost as if they were creating the sword. The Sword of Water has a 500XP cost (listed in the Appendix), so if the paladin in question prayed to his god, I would see it as being unreasonable that for a small personal sacrifice that he wouldn't be helped out in this case.

As for the other mods, use the DMG to calculate what they might cost for additional powers to it.

Remeber, the game is about fun for the players and the DM. (As a side note, I'm one of those who felt a little bad about the swords breaking after the altars were smashed, but played it the way the modules said)

msherman
Looking around
(12/22/02 5:30:25 am)
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Re: Saving the elemental Swords
According to the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in the PHB, you can mend a broken magic weapon for half the usual XP, GP and time cost it would take to create it. So it would take ~1500-1700gp, ~250xp, and 4 days work to repair/reconsecrate each of the swords. They're not artifacts, just plain magic weapons, so it seems fair to allow them to be repaired using these rules.

Kylearanon
Here for a while
(12/22/02 3:40:19 pm)
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question !
While we are at the Sword-Topic ... Do the special abilities of the swords (each in its own way) affect only one single target, or do they rather hit all the targets in between as well ?

Kyle

JLXC
Here for a while
(12/22/02 10:46:46 pm)
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Re: question !
Ummmm... yeah.

One target only for sure. All area of effect do not require a "to hit roll" only a save.

Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons,

for you are Crunchy & good with Ketchup

Lobo Lurker
Here for a while
(12/23/02 6:12:05 am)
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Re: question !
Hmm...

I'm thinking that you could just have the Paladin get the Sword of Water enchanted with the 'Holy' Attribute and maybe another spell for effect... say Consecrate (that's a spell, right?).

Then, you could just have the Paladin use the Sword of Water...which now does extra 'Holy' damage. And personally, I'd allow the 'Holy' damage to extend to the shooting water.

Viola! Now it doesn't shoot holy water... it shoots 'Holy' water. :lol And it's a pretty spiffy weapon to boot.

Obviously, I throw my hat in with those who say that since the sword is not intelligent (it doesn't even have inherently evil powers) it's not 'really' evil. Is a hammer created by the faith of Tharizdun evil? I think not.

Just my two copper pieces.

LL  >D

WylocktheGrey
Here for a while
(12/26/02 9:12:32 am)
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Re: Saving the elemental Swords
Since the sword isn't intelligent and it is tied to the altar, make the paldin have to go on some sort of side quest to bathe the sword in some sort of "Holy Waters" to cleanse it of evil. Since the sword is tied to the altar, tell the paladin that the sword's ties must be severed and ties to his own soul, heart--whatever. Make the weapon intelligent from this process, but I would tone down the shooting water thing--it seems kinda cheesy. Give it the ability to grant waterbreathing or something else X times a day.

It's always good to reward players that get into the story.

Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(12/26/02 9:14:46 am)
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Re: Saving the elemental Swords
Perhaps the sword is designed in such a manner that it *must* draw power from a direct faith-focus (an altar), and the reconsecrating process will actually require that he find a temple to his own deity and have them assist (and permit) his tying the weapon to their altar instead of the EEE one?

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

chicken in disguise
Here for a while
(12/27/02 3:13:25 am)
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Re: Saving the elemental Swords

I would allow any cleric with access to the relevant elemental domain to 'purify' the weapon. Essentially, the new deity would power the weapon and Tharizdun's influence would be removed.

Specifically, I would have it be a special rite involving banishment, break enchantment, consecrate/desecrate (depending on the cleric/deity alignment), a planar ally spell used to call a relevant 16 HD elemental to reside within the weapon, and either gaseous form, stone shape, wall of fire, or control water as appropriate (these are all domain spells). The ritual should cost ~500 XP and 1 day for one sword, but should require no gp investment. The blades can only be cleansed after the relevant temple altar is destroyed (IIRC, the blades are rendered mundane and not destroyed outright).

If the above ritual is performed by a good cleric (or cleric of a good deity), then the weapon also has a chance to strike any evil elemental struck by it dead (Fort save DC 17 negates). This ability is similar to the disruption ability.

A druid would also be able to similarly cleanse the weapons, although it would require different spells.

Brandon Aiken (a.k.a. da chicken)

Kelashein
Looking around
(12/30/02 11:51:37 pm)
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Re: Saving the elemental Swords
I'd say you've got quite a few choices. Here's a couple more to toss on the fire.

1. Allow it to be altered using any method from above (keeping in mind that the process could be reversed).

2. Instead of a quest, put your paladin in a dream-state where he's conversing with religious figments from his imagination that frame the whole sword thing as an evil relic that must be put aside before it taints him with lust for power. If he gives it up, he's visited by some extraplanar critter that tells him he's honorable and has rendered the sword innocent through his pure heart. (This is a lot quicker than a quest. IMC time is of the essence, the world will be destroyed, etc)

3. Destroy the sword with the altar or lose your paladinhood. Period. The Sword of Water could, however, inspire the creation of a more appropriate weapon for the Paladin (and perhaps his church will do it for him in secret if he lives in poverty, isn't greedy enough to amass that kind of cash, etc)

4. The Sword isn't evil but using it is. Restoration or Wish or some other method could sever it's taint and the altar could be destroyed while leaving the sword intact.

5. It doesn't REALLY shoot "Holy" water. Your PC's Paladin just THINKS it does because he's starting to go mad from fighting all these crazy people. Give him extra RP XP points when he charges into battle vs Undead, Evil Extraplanars, etc CERTAIN that his "Holy" water sword will smite all the bad guys. Let him be a little wacky. Not all Paladins are strait-laced. Look at Xaod!

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