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msherman
Looking around
(12/27/02 12:16:18 pm)
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Foreshadowing Thrommel
I'd like to play up Thrommel in my RTTTOEE campaign. The game really just started (the party will be fighting Utreshimon on Sunday), but I've already started planting some seeds. The first adventure the party had (at first level, on the road from Verbobonc to Hommlet) involved defeating a hobgoblin rogue who had captured a dire bat, and was terrorizing the surrounding countryside who thought the bat was a vampire. After defeating him, the party is now known in the surrounding country as the Vampire Slayers. That nickname is particularly favoured in the last village before reaching Hommlet, called 'Sunnyvale'. I think at some point, there may have to be some vampire spawn there. 
Anyway, I'd like to play up Thrommel some more throughout the campaign, but none of the players know much about greyhawk. Any ideas on how to introduce Thrommel? One of the players does own a copy of the originial TOEE, though he hasn't read much of it. To tie that knowledge in, his character has an uncle who fought at Emridy Meadows, and told many tales of the battle. He probably wouldn't recognize the name Thrommel, though. Any tips would be appreciated.
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benhamtroll
Here to stay
(12/27/02 2:55:38 pm)
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Re: Foreshadowing Thrommel
What I did in my campaign was have Redithidor sing the Ballad of Emridy Meadows, in truly over-the-top fashion. He mentioned the valiant forces of Furyondy and Veluna, led by the great Paladin Prince Thrommel, who was struck down but whose body was never recovered. They asked a bunch of questions about but Redithidor, of course, knew nothing more. They may even forget about it in the time between now and reaching the Outer Fane, but I think I've planted a seed.
There's no business like gnoll business |
madfox
Still here? Wow.
(12/27/02 3:08:43 pm)
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Re: Foreshadowing Thrommel
Try to get the players interested in the history of the temple through the NPCs in Hommlet. They know about the dissapearance of Thrommel and they also know the prince dissapeared while fighting the Temple of Elemental Evil. Drop some hints here and there about the turmoil the kingdom is in and how some people wish the true rulers are back on the throne. Perhaps you might even do something with the Mandate of Heaven, though that is not really a Greyhawk thing. Since you want to introduce Thrommel so early, you can do it a lot easier then later on. It looks a lot less cheesy when you introduce Thrommel about 30 sessions before meeting the actual person. Personally I would go for what appears to be a side track to high light the setting. I use them a lot, though mostly I limit them to one encounter. This way the setting comes alive to the players and they feel like they are part of something big. It also helps making forshadowing plot twists a lot less obvious. After all, was that barfight between that drunk young nobleman and the acolyte of St. Cuthbert just a barfight over the old days being better then the new days or did you drop it because perhaps it has got something to do with the big plot? Perhaps the players might remember the name Thrommel that that young nobleman mentioned or which they heard through the whispers of the other customers in the bar? Or perhaps they might even chose a side in the conflict or start enquiring into the history. Then again, I am blessed with players who love to delve into the history behind events 
The journey between Hommlet and Rastor is perfect for a few of such side encounters. Make sure you drop some red herrings in there as well. Soldiers discussing the threat Iuz poses or perhaps the PCs can voil a plot of spies of Iuz to poison an important noblemans son of a faction that is looking for Thrommel. Then there is the Scarlet Brotherhood whoes actions might create a small adventure without involving the Temple of Elemental Evil. One thing you should really watch out for though is the fact that the side track is not more interesting then the real adventure
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Kylearanon
Here for a while
(12/27/02 3:55:30 pm)
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thrommel ...
Say, could any of you come up with a brief history of Thrommel ? The man heīs been, the man heīs now and what happened ?
I have never known ToEE. So I didnīt know until today, that Thrommel had such a history and I really love the idea of making him appear more often !!
Would be veeeery greatful !!
Kyle
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 Infiniti2000
Here for a while
(12/27/02 5:31:05 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Thrommel ...
"...could any of you come up with a brief history of Thrommel?"
Easily granted. Check out Thrommel's bio.
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msherman
Looking around
(12/27/02 8:15:07 pm)
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Thrommel and Lareth?
I just had an idea... what if Lareth were the one who originally captured Thrommel (presumably with a lucky critical shot), at the end of Emridy? That could explain why Lareth was so favoured by the forces of evil, enough to warrant a raising. It also lets me tie Thrommel in to the heavy amount of exposition that already surrounds Lareth, so introducing Thrommel at that point won't seem strange -- and it gives Lareth an even better reason to be ranting against the cult now that Thrommel is an insider, and he's an outsider. It would also introduce a very interesting dynamic into the fanes, if Thrommel is still around when Lareth is declared the Champion.
To those who know more about the history of Greyhawk and the original TOEE than I do, would this twist be glaringly inconsistant with any facts already known?
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ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(12/27/02 9:32:53 pm)
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Re: Thrommel and Lareth?
I was hoping to introduce them through contact (direct or indirect) with Joline after the word starts filtering through Verbobonc that the party has found some wacko temple that maybe related to the ToEE. What I haven't fully figured out yet is how to link his disappearance through the SB to this so that this info would make her interested in getting someone to look into his disappearance more fully. Maybe she just has a teeny bit of a hint that he was delivered to former ToEE instigators after being abducted.
She just wants some answers this late in the game, of course... but my hope is that it might open the doors to the cool redemption BoB idea.
Hopefully this would be soon after the party first visits Rastor/CRM before they start making too much noise there, but there's less control over the timing of the info flow by starting it this late.
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Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(12/29/02 7:41:37 pm)
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Me, myself, and I
I'll just throw out a couple of ideas here.
If your party has not played the original ToEE, then the whole Thrommel thing will be completely lost on them. (Which in a way is too bad because it's a nice bit of irony.)
Anyhow, in no particular order: - Elmo or Y'Dey are veterans enough to possibly know of the Thrommel legend.
- Jolene may still have some special Furyondian agents/and or bounty hunters about who are trying to track down her long lost love's final demise. They may be at Terrigan's or the Welcome Wench following up some leads or interviewing some of the older townsfolk.
- Love the 'Ballad of Emridy Meadows' idea for good ol' Redithidoor. Good stuff that.
- There may be a stone marker out in the grounds surrounding the Ruined Temple that denotes the spot where "our valiant lord and most able commander fell in battle against the dark forces."
- Local Hommlet folk may speak of the "ghost of Thrommel" protecting them from bandits or monsters. (Totally untrue, but a good bit of superstition nonetheless.)
- Xaod the Slayer may swear an oath upon "the bright blade of Fragarach the Answerer." (Thrommel's legendary sword.)
- Perhaps some of the older, grizzled veterans in Byrne's Badgers are former member's of Thrommel's company who felt they couldn't return to Furyondy after the loss of their leader.
- Lareth capturing him is a good idea. I think Lareth might know he's still alive. I would not let Lareth have ANY idea what his current condition is. Lareth in Nulb is a bitter, addled old coot. He's fallen far from his previous standing in the cult and likely has very little to do with them.
One thing to keep in mind is that Thrommel is not a willing servant of the Temple. He is an unpredictable, largely uncontrollable wild card. He is very powerful and if word leaked of the famous prisoner bound to the Outer Fane, a very large and well-equipped force would soon arrive to effect his rescue.
That's the last thing the Doomdreamers need.
Hope that gives you some more ideas. I think the important thing is to set up the myth a little bit. Impress on your players what a good person he was, and how important he was.
That should make his current cruel persona all the more biting when they meet him.
-Thrommel, who says: Get it? Biting? Haaahhahahahaha. I kill myself. Good thing I'm undead.
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msherman
Looking around
(12/29/02 10:05:11 pm)
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Re: Me, myself, and I
Thanks for the tips, guys. We just finished the session, and I started dropping some of the hints. I had Redithidoor telling the tale of Emridy Meadows at the Wench the night before the party headed off to kill the dragon (and I drew the party's attention to it by pointing out how much more rapt the crowd was when Redithidoor was telling tales than when he was singing), and I referred to it again when Red accompanied the party the next day to the moathouse, comparing the party's bravery and valour to Thrommels. Sadly, that song lasted all of one round -- "CUT OUT THAT INFERNAL RACKET" in draconian were the last words Red heard before his shocking demise.
They didn't really bite, but if I can get them to go out to the ruined temple next, I'm definitely going to use the marker plaque, and I'll try to work something into Xaod's ramblings -- he's currently with the party, too. I suspect they're going to skip the temple, though -- I think they think it's a trap that Chat was setting for them, because he was trying to get them to go there instead of the moathouse. Of course, now that Chat's dead (after assassinating the party wizard, immediately after Utreshimon flew off at 8 hp), they may be more likely to check it out.
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Kylearanon
Here for a while
(12/29/02 11:15:46 pm)
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Re: Me, myself, and I
First, thanks for tips and stuff. And thanks again to Thrommel himself getting out of his coffin to deal personally with these questions ( ... seems my knocking was loud enough then ).
Still one thing confusing me ...
Quote: 'There may be a stone marker out in the grounds surrounding the Ruined Temple that denotes the spot where "our valiant lord and most able commander fell in battle against the dark forces."'
In that little history I read about Thrommel is stated that he disappeared like 5 years after the battle. So how could he have been fallen at Emridy Meadows ?
Could somebody date me up here?
And is that all there is of Thrommelīs history ? I would really like to get some more depths inro this character and well, I could make it up but if he already has a story ....
Thanks !
Kyle
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deafdungeonmasterRIT
Here for a while
(12/29/02 11:33:06 pm)
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well
have missing poster of Thrommel in the town of Hommlet. Really cheesy, but it will work.
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Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(12/30/02 7:49:49 am)
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Timelines
{In that little history I read about Thrommel is stated that he disappeared like 5 years after the battle. So how could he have been fallen at Emridy Meadows ?}
Well, there's canonical 1E/2E Greyhawk history and there's the history as presented in the module.
According to the module, Thrommel was captured at the Battle of Emridy Meadows. This took place 22 years ago when the forces of Furyondy & Veluna initially attacked.
Then there's the Greyhawk canon which says that Thrommel survived Emridy Meadows and was kidnapped some five years later to prevent a lasting alliance between Furyondy & Veluna. This is attributed to the Scarlet Brotherhood, but you could easily decide it was a vendetta by the cultists of the Temple.
Regardless of how he got there, in the original ToEE, Thrommel appears in the dungeons disguised as a vampire. The encounter is a trick to try to get the players to kill the Prince.
So if you go with the module history, there could definitely be a marker on the battlefield.
If you go with Grewhawk canon, you obviously can't have the marker. You probably also couldn't have the 'ghost of Thrommel' story, etc.
It's also worth considering how you might work in events from the original ToEE. Are any of the other adventurers from that campaign around? (Besides people like Elmo and Y'Dey, who were sort of side players.) Did they find evidence of Thrommel's imprisonment in the ToEE or perhaps even encounter the non-vampiric Thrommel?
You might also use this for other foreshadowing. Maybe one of the adventurers in the ToEE was driven mad by the events there. (Not all adventurers are completely successful and retire to extravagant lifestyles after doing their turn in the dungeon.) Maybe Y'Dey has taken this poor deranged soul in as her ward. He's the local village idiot that people take pity on because of how his life was changed defending their town.
This could be a great way to drop all kinds of hints and background info. Give him moments of lucidity as it pertains to the history of the ToEE, but those moments quickly break down into rabbling insanity. (See the BoB for some hints on RP-ing this type of insanity.)
Hope that helps. I'm by no means an old-skool Greyhawk fan so I may not have gotten the canon exactly right.
-Thrommel, who's afraid he may have broken down into rabbling insanity there himself.
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msherman
Looking around
(12/30/02 8:49:04 am)
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Giving original TOEE as a handout?
What do you think about just giving the original TOEE to the players to read, as though it were a handout, at some point?
There seems to be a lot of interesting backstory in RTTTOEE that just won't make much sense to the players if they're not familiar with the original, though I think waiting til after the moathouse is the right thing to do, since the moathouse maps/traps have hardly changed at all.
So I'm thinking that one possible way to work it in might be as Elmo's journals of his adventuring days, which he gives to the party once they've proven a> their mettle, and b> that there is in fact a resurgence of the cult of the EEE, after defeating the moathouse. Since my party consists of a cleric of Pelor and his companions (many in the employ of the church), the connection to Elmo is easy. I can use that opportunity to drop in some anti-Y'dey ranting, too, which will be fun, considering that they've already gone to Y'dey once for a raise dead.
On a related note, I've come up with an interesting red herring for when the party brings Ysslansh's Obex back to Yether for identification -- he's going to suggest that perhaps Zuggtmoy's cult is active again, and it's subverted the cult of Tharizdun much in the same way it subverted the EEE, Lolth, and Iuz in the past. Because of course everyone knows that an actual cult of Tharizdun becomming active in the region would be sheer madness.
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Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(12/30/02 10:57:24 am)
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Re: Giving original TOEE as a handout?
{What do you think about just giving the original TOEE to the players to read, as though it were a handout, at some point?}
I guess I wouldn't recommend it. IMO, that really highlights the fact that it's a game with stats and mechanics rather than enriching the story. Plus it would take forever to read -- it's huge.
The other option you mention -- making up some notes and sketching out some maps -- would be very cool.
If you're really lazy, WotC advertises that ToEE novelization in the back of the module. I haven't read it, but you could read through it and hand that out to your players if it seems that important.
On a more practical level, I would never pass my copy of the original ToEE around to my players. But that's just me.
You could also do a quick web search for campaign logs of the original ToEE and use them to compile a set of notes.
Honestly though, the RttToEE stands on its own just fine. I think it's a bonus if you've played the original, but by no means mandatory.
If you do make up those notes by Elmo however, please share them here!
-Thrommel, who keeps all his pdf's in sheet protectors and three-ring binders, if that tells you anything.
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Kelashein
Looking around
(12/30/02 10:44:58 pm)
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Re: Giving original TOEE as a handout?
I've got a pretty good plan for Thrommel when my PCs start setting their sights on the Inner Fane. Having finally defeated Hedrack, they'll want to rest, etc and will likely assume (none of them are Undead experts) that either A. He's just a normal priest and not realize his true potential or B. that they're safe from him temporarily. He'll then start terrorizing them every chance he gets. He can lower their stats and likely will before they drive him off a second time and then he'll just retreat to his hideaway and then return to harass them some more after resting. This will go on until they've left the CRM completely (who sez he can't follow them to the Inner Fane for more fun and games?) Perhaps in the study there might be a book he bothered to write of his past....they'll likely be looking there for clues about entering the Inner Fane because I plan for Varachan to be good and dead one way or another by the time the smoke clears (it would suck for him to be around to tell them exactly how to enter).
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Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(1/2/03 2:35:28 pm)
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Re: Giving original TOEE as a handout?
Quote:
I just had an idea... what if Lareth were the one who originally captured Thrommel (presumably with a lucky critical shot), at the end of Emridy?
I wouldn't recommend that. Lareth was 6th lvl (I think) and is what, 8th now? Thrommel would have handed his butt to him in 2 rounds flat. Besides, if Lareth managed to get Thrommel, he wouldn't have been cooped up in the Moat House, I think. And personally, I don't think it matters much whether Thrommel disappeared at the battle or 5 years after. And who knows? The Scarlet Brotherhood agents who took off with him might have been some Tharizdun-worshipping Black Brotherhood agents (they exist - check the SB accessory).
Quote:
Any ideas on how to introduce Thrommel?
Well, the Oerth Journal entries on Verbobonc describes a Lady Sarcina who lost her fiance a few years ago. Maybe Jolene pays her a somewhat public visit, and the PCs can hear the story then - perhaps a variant version of Rethithidoor's ballad.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Fellwind 
Here for a while
(1/3/03 2:43:47 pm)
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Re: Giving original TOEE as a handout?
My party is all to young and new to have played the original. So any back story on our vampiric Blackguard is probably wasted.
I'll probably play up the research angle after they first encounter him. Have their inquiry produce agents of Jolene investigating these rumors.
"You must not Ph34r, Ph34r leads to anger, anger leads to hate. Hate leads to beatdowns, and B34td0wnz Sux0r."
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Kylearanon
Here for a while
(1/5/03 8:41:19 pm)
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Foreshadowing Thrommel
Another thing, can Thrommel in some way be brought back to the way of the Paladin. Or at least to the way of goodness ? I canīt remember if it was just a delirious dream or what, but I htought I read somewhere something about it. Though I donīt really believe that you can safe a vampire in any way ... well, at least not without a well-sized stake .
Kyle
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Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(1/5/03 9:22:44 pm)
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Re: Foreshadowing Thrommel
Check out this part of the BoB.
The key thing here is that in the Development section of the encounter with Thrommel it says "Unless presented with an artifact of his old life or some such, Thrommel cannot be turned back to the path of good."
Which of course suggests, he can be turned back.
Ronin's party did a great job of it, and I think it was a nice RP diversion from the relentless assault on the CRM.
-Thrommel, who's not the real Dark Prince Thrommel. My name is Ryan. I inherited this coffin from the previous Dark Prince Thrommel, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from was not the real Dark Prince Thrommel either - his name was Cumberbun.
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Kylearanon
Here for a while
(1/7/03 1:51:34 am)
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Re: Foreshadowing Thrommel
Once again my thanks.
I read the whole story and was truly impressed. Great playing. Great DMing, as well.
One thing remains ... how can Thrommel come back ? You may question my power of imagination now, cause after all itīs a fantasy game where all is possible.
But he went down in flames, right ? So unless he becomes a phoenix .....
???
Kyle
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madfox
Still here? Wow.
(1/7/03 1:58:46 am)
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Re: Foreshadowing Thrommel
It is called true ressurection or a double wish/miracle (one to create the body and one for the ressurection).
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