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ronin
Here for a while
(12/30/02 4:46:10 pm)
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The Final Battle
My group has just entered the Fire Node last session. They have encountered a group of fire giants and another group of fire elementals. They are about to enter the area with the efreet and the paladin (first in party marching order) gets the opportunity (if he fails the REF save) to go swimming in lava. After this happens I am sure they will leave to regroup.
I have been doing some thinking about the final battle. The party has taken everything out in the recovered temple except for Lareth (who went to the node) and Falrinth who teleported away. I wonder if Lareth would wait any longer knowing the party is coming after them in the node. Once they leave and he (Lareth) has confirmed the fact that they are not afraid to enter the node after them what's to stop him from taking Maliskra and Imix to the recovered temple for a shot at freeing Tharizdun before they can come back again?
That battle could be staged behind the greater temple and the "freeing" process could already have begun when the PCs enter the area. Actually the group always scrys them lately before they enter the temple. How about when they scry in the morning they see the process beginning? Then they have to teleport in quickly and attempt to stop the process. That sounds rather heroic doesn't it?
Either way I wanted post the NPCs participating in this final battle and see what everyone thinks, I wouldn't want to go overboard you know.
I must premise this by saying that I (like Thrommel before me) have allowed all of the splatbooks and some other stuff as well (mostly Malhavoc and FFG stuff) so the PCs are a tough group to challenge. Their save DCs for spells are typically around the mid 20 range (and up) and the fighters can attain a BAB around 30 or so when allowed the time to use all those spells (as many as 17 on a PC at times).
The PCs are as follows..
Arthur- a level 13 paladin with a dire lion mount
Darien- a level 7 cleric/ level 7 inquisitor (with the First's prayer bead)
Vallis- a level 6 cleric/ level 5 divine oracle/ level 2 contemplative
Talon- a level 13 mage (aspiring archmage)
Xarpolis- a level 8 mage/ level 5 loremaster
Arthur and Darien are the tanks, and with Darien using the prayer bead he becomes a 18th level fighter with 14th level cleric spells. Arthur's sword will be power suited pretty nicely as well and his dire lion mount helps him a bit. The other cleric concentrates on healing mostly when needed while one mage attacks with spells and the other counters the NPCs spells alot (improved counterspell coupled with haste). The entire party will be hasted as well.
The opposition:
Imix with a divine rank of 0
Maliskra (changed to a fiendish half fire elemental level 11 cleric)
Lareth (a demonically infused level 7 cleric with all 4 elemental templates applied)
a red dragon (either a CR 12 or CR 14)
The dragon isnt set in stone yet as I think it may be too tough for the group. The group did take on Susain, Dugart, Thucos, Estalion, Falrinth, and a balor (planar ally) in the greater temple (with a energy transformation field keyed to a greater dispelling) and the encounter was a stalemate. They ended up leaving the scene after 12 rounds and didn't have anyone die but didn't kill (though one NPC was stone and another was feebleminded) anyone either. The next time they teleported directly into the greater temple with Lareth and the Second (the grell idea) replacing Falrinth and the balor. They were victorious this time in about 8 rounds.
Obviously I don't want a TPK but I don't want to hand the battle to them either. I want to give them a battle they can leave the table winning but won't leave the table with clean undergarments.
So, too tough for them? I used an EL calculator and it came up with a 18.8 IIRC. I feel they can win this battle honestly but it will be tough. Should the battle stay in the Fire Node? I must admit, them teleporting in at the last second to thwart the attempt to free Tharizdun sounds pretty cool. I have also thought of placing the dragon to guard the entry point to the node once they leave and enter the second time. Just so many options....
This has been on heck of a ride. As always, any suggestions or comments are much appreciated. I'd like to thank everyone that posts to this board for helping me run a much better campaign.
ronin
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Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(12/30/02 6:15:59 pm)
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Re: The Final Battle
I think battling to keep Lareth from summoning Tharizdun is a great climactic ending.
You need to decide how the mechanics of the ritual work. In the module as written, there are basically two steps to the ritual as described: blow the horn, and have Imix place the Orb of Oblivion into the nimbus of black energy. Lareth's only job is to call forth the princes.
Now the key to any good "countdown to destruction" scene is stringing it out enough to build up the suspense. Right now it sounds like it takes about two rounds and boom it's done.
Here's my suggestion: it takes several rounds of sounding the Horn of Darkness to fully form the nimbus of black energy. I would describe it as looking like the spiral of Tharizdun, but completely black. It slowly spins in mid-air, growing each round.
Now, Lareth and Imix know this is the part of the ritual that's most likely to be interrupted, so they've made some preparations. They've retreated to the back of the room (right where the 30 is) and, with Imix seated so he can fit inside, Lareth uses the Rod of Force to cover them in a 13' hemispherical wall of force. Lareth has Maliskra place a stone on top of the hemisphere, and once battle begins outside the sphere, he keeps an action readied to bring the wall of force back up if it gets dispelled somehow. If Lareth is extra-paranoid, which he very well should be at this point, he burns a charge covering the floor in a wall of force as well. (Don't want any ethereal visitors popping in on us.)
Important thing to note here is that Area 30 is sealed with a forbiddance. That means the party can't dimension door or teleport into it. They will have to teleport into the Greater Temple (which isn't warded by forbiddance) and approach as normal.
As soon as the black spiral has reached full size, Lareth with dispel the wall of force and Imix will attempt to finish the ritual.
Meanwhile, outside the wall of force, I suggest you have Maliskra & the dragon in place to try to wear down the PC's as much as possible.
So at this point, we've effectively broken the fight into two stages -- some mooks for the PC's to battle while Imix & Lareth power up the nimbus of energy, and the climactic attempt to stop Imix from hurling the Orb of Oblivion into the nimbus.
I think broken up like this, the fight is very winnable. I predict Maliskra will go down quickly unless she is buffed to the gills. You may want to have the dragon roost up in the ceiling. (The ceiling is 30' tall, since it doesn't list a specific height.) The dragon will be the main opponent, so I'd go CR 14 for the dragon.
Lareth will be a pushover. Properly buffed, he might break 100 hit points. However, the fight with Imix will be tough.
The good news is, you can give the party a breather between the defeat of the dragon and when Lareth dispels the wall of force -- just have it take a few more rounds for the nimbus to grow. (I'm thinking of the scene in SW:Ep I where Darth Maul runs behind the force field and Qui-gonn sits there and meditates.)
They also may not be able to stop Imix from placing the Orb into the Nimbus. I suggest that he throw the orb into the nimbus. If the party needs a little more suspense, you can tell them they can see it hurtling through the inky void toward a large circular golden door. Maybe some PC's will fling themselves into the nimbus to go after it and they can try to smash it or grab it before it impacts on the gate to Tharizdun's prison. Meanwhile the others can battle Imix.
I think this scenario is winnable, but should also prove memorable.
You should consider what you find an acceptable threshold for PC deaths. Do you want to kill none, one, or some?
Because I suspect Divine Imix will likely kill someone. Particularly if, when they see the ritual is in progress, they don't think they can take the time to implement their full power-up suite.
They can probably take on the dragon and Maliskra without the full power-up, but I don't think they can take on Divine Imix without maximum buffs. I think they'll be hard pressed to chew through 342 hit points and that 42 AC.
You might also consider using semi-divine Imix, with the lower AC & SR and fewer hit points.
Again, a lot of this depends on how much they power-up. My suggestion is have all three versions at your disposal and see what happens during the force-field face-off. That's another great reason to set it up like that, you can fine-tune in the midst of the battle.
I hope this works out for you, it sounds like it's going to be a great fight. Let us know how it goes!
And be sure to post a 'Lessons Learned' for us all when it's over and done with.
Good luck!
-Thrommel, who'll take the heat for this one if your players won't buy the standard "Blame Monte!" line.
Edited by: Thrommel at: 12/30/02 6:21:55 pm
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 Infiniti2000
Here for a while
(12/30/02 7:57:30 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: The Final Battle
Maybe it's not spelled out in the module (I looked), but I was always under the impression that all four princes needed to be summoned in order to free Big T. Perhaps Imix can be fighting off the PC's with some other mooks while Lareth summons Yan-C-Bin from behind the force wall and within the forbiddance.
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ronin
Here for a while
(12/30/02 8:29:52 pm)
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Re: The Final Battle
Alright. Now that I have the ball rolling let me post a few more thoughts.
I like the idea of the suspenseful ending. I think the best way to accomplish this is to tailor it to the party. The sooner they are able to interupt the process the sooner it happens. If they have problems with the dragon and Maliskra then it takes a few moments longer. The ideal situation would be to have Imix toss the orb as soon as the PCs get close enough and see which PC wants to play fetch.
Lareth will put up 2 walls of force. The first will be around him and Imix (hemisphere) and the second will be covering the opening into the room. Lareth has witnessed the party take down a forcecage with a disintegrate spell once already and as pointed out already, he is getting paranoid.
After reading the descriptions closer it appears room 29 is 60' high and room 30 is 30' high. This should help the dragon out a bit. I gave the dragon the "large and in chagre" and "hover" feats. Perhaps the best place for it would be right around the altar to use those AoOs to drive the PCs back and away from room 30. I wanted to give that feat to Imix (large and in charge) but with his reach and combat reflexes the party would be toast.
I plan to have all 3 versions (sickening to have 3 versions isn't it?) of Imix ready for duty. I'll make the call once they face him as to which one to use. I think it will be the rank 0 version. I predict they will get thru Maliskra and the dragon in a few rounds fairly unscathed IF they can power up first (which they will probably do).
The only real issue I see is that both Arthur and Darien may want to get into the room with Imix before dispatching the mooks. Luckily they can't do this alone. If they can talk one of the mages into it though they may get into trouble. Hopefully I can describe the nimbus well enough so they realize they have some time to spare, if even a few moments.
If they are successful in getting the orb then Imix will move into area 29 to take advantage of his height and reach. Lareth will be flying and burrowing all over the battlefield. This guy is a true freak. He really thru my players for a loop when he burrowed away to ascape last time. They all sat there saying "what/ who the hell is this guy?"
I am beginning to like this idea alot but I have another question. What (if anything) should happen to a PC that enters the nimbus of darkness? If I was a PC I definitely would expect something bad if I entered the darkness. I need to think on this some more. Perhaps someone will have a good idea sometime before my next session, which is New Year's Eve (short notice I know).
BTW, in area 30 it describes the freeing process. With just Imix there is a 25% chance to free Tharizdun. Each prince ups the chance by another 25% with all 4 ensuring he is freed. Which brings up another quick question. Say the PCs have the orb and Imix is dead, what if they blow the horn and place the orb in the darkness themselves? No elemental prince present, no chance for release right? But the orb is destroyed in the process if Tharizdun is freed or not correct? Would this be a legitimate way to destroy the orb? It also doesn't mention this but I assume all 4 power gems must be in the orb to free Tharizdun. Anyone else have any thoughts on this subject?
Thanks for the input.
ronin
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Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(12/30/02 9:56:02 pm)
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Re: The Final Battle
{The only real issue I see is that both Arthur and Darien may want to get into the room with Imix before dispatching the mooks.}
That's what the rocks are for on top of the hemisphere of force. Lareth should have an action readied so that as soon as the wall of force is dispelled (as evidenced by the rocks dropping) he can bring it back up. He's got 5 charges on his rod of force, he's only used 2 or 3 (depending on whether he zaps the floor or not).
{What (if anything) should happen to a PC that enters the nimbus of darkness? }
I'd say it's a long, long void which ends in the gate, just like the one described on p 79 (area 129). Only maybe this is a back way in. For the expected 'evil' effect, I would use the same 'choking' effect as the smoke trap in area 110 (p. 72). Only there's no visible smoke. Something is just trying to choke the PC.
You might want to up the DC so it starts at 20 or something. Although that +1 per round is pretty rough. Depends on how long you want them to fall through the void. (I'm thinking of that cheeseball effect they have in movies where the hero falls down and tries to catch up to an object that fell seconds beforehand. Although I have to admit, in LotR:TT it was pretty cool.)
You might want to have the orb hit the gate, causing the prison door to start cracking. The solar appears, using all of its might to hold the chains/doorway together. He'll beg the PC to smash the skull before his strength gives out and Tharizdun is freed. Very dramatic...
{It also doesn't mention this but I assume all 4 power gems must be in the orb to free Tharizdun. }
Actually, my reading of it is that the elemental power gems are primarily used to open the nodes. So you only need the corresponding elemental power gem for each Prince. Since Imix is the only one participating, only the fire gem is needed.
As far as destroying the orb goes, if you're going for the real cliffhanger save-the-solar-and-the-world ending, you might want to simplify its destruction to something like taking 50+ points of damage in a single attack.
-Thrommel, who's doing the math... if he were to start driving at 5pm tomorrow...
Edited by: Thrommel at: 12/30/02 10:06:45 pm
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deafdungeonmasterRIT
Here for a while
(12/30/02 11:30:49 pm)
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Hmm
I love how you put this, Thrommel.. well done and very creative..
but just one question..
Suppose that PC smash the skull.. what does leave for Solar? I'm sure he will want to go out and challenge Imix to duel..
That will be the duel of the eon!
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Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(12/31/02 6:41:01 am)
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Re: Hmm
{...what does leave for Solar? }
I'd rule that the solar's duty to protect the damaged gate is more important than fighting Imix. He might use his powers to heal or buff up the PC who smashed the skull, but I wouldn't have him fight unless the party was really in trouble.
Think of it like a comic book: if you're reading an X-Men graphic novel, the writers don't let the Hulk come in on page 350 and finish off Magneto in the big grand finale. They let Wolverine & co. kick royal butt even if it means Professor X and Cyclops get knocked out.
-Thrommel, who was always more of an Iron Man fan himself...
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Infiniti2000
Here for a while
(12/31/02 9:17:37 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Hmm
Good work Thrommel. I think you should put this in the BoB.
As a reward for destroying the orb, the solar could grant the PC a wish or maybe an endure elements (fire) following by a permanency (I know, not strictly allowed, but reasonable, more flavorful given what's happening, and not unbalancing). However, if the PC asks to borrow the solar's bow or sword, tell him forget it! 
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ronin
Here for a while
(12/31/02 2:01:11 pm)
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Re: The Final Battle
When I say I am worried that Darien and Arthur will charge in after Lareth my main concern is that they will leave the other 3 party members alone with Maliskra and the red dragon. I think those 3 would be hard pressed to win that battle AND have enough left in the tank to be of any help with Imix and Lareth.
I figure Arthur and Darien will smack into the wall of force covering the entrance to area 30 and scream for a disintegrate spell. If the mages comply they will charge in and run smack into the second wall of force. Then they will either wait for a second disintegrate (if one is even available) or return to area 29 to help with the dragon and Maliskra. Depending on their tactics the party could end up over their heads if they are not careful.
I am looking forward to running this battle. Thanks for the input as always. I will post the results when the dust settles.
ronin
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JamesL85
Here for a while
(12/31/02 2:10:34 pm)
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Re: Hmm
Once again, Thrommel has proved that he is the "poo".....Just take a big wiff.....
Click here to see the DM Assist. |
Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(12/31/02 4:07:32 pm)
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Re: Hmm
{I figure Arthur and Darien will smack into the wall of force covering the entrance to area 30 and scream for a disintegrate spell. }
Then have Lareth lean some 2 x 4's up against that wall of force and ready an action to reinforce it if necessary. That should keep the party from splitting up.
Good luck!
-Thrommel, who actually smells faintly of lillies and damp earth.
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Zagig
Here for a while
(1/7/03 4:30:39 am)
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Re: Hmm
Could someone please BoB this stuff. I know that when the time comes for my party to fight Imix, I am going to want it and might not be able to find it. Please?
Zag ig
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Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(1/7/03 6:30:48 am)
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Re: Hmm
I've edited and BoB'ed it, but would someone (ronin? Thrommel?) please check it and make sure that it's coherent in others' mind (apart from just mine). If I've mangled it too badly, I'm sorry. Please post comments here (rather than in the BoB).
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
ronin
Here for a while
(1/7/03 4:26:41 pm)
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Re: Hmmm
I read it over and obviously I can understand it since I participated in the original discussion. I think others later will have problems following it since the comments I made are not distinguishable from the comments Thrommel made.
I don't have a problem editing the post other than I don't know how to use the edit function to do so. Perhaps it may be better if Thrommel could edit it if he is able to and in the meantime I will ask around to see if I can learn to use the edit function. Once I am able to then I will gladly edit the post.
ronin
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Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(1/7/03 10:28:18 pm)
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Re: Hmmm
I agree with ronin, the unmarked back and forth made the post a little confusing.
And ronin, you wouldn't be able to edit it unless it was your post or you were a mod.
So you can spend the time you would have spent on the edit function telling us how it went!
-Thrommel, who hopes there is in fact joy in Mudville.
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Siobharek
Still here? Wow.
(1/8/03 12:08:37 am)
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Re: Hmmm
Well, I tried making it a coherent whole. And failed  I basically didn't have the guts to edit your comments as extensively as I do when I edit professionally (I'm a copywriter). It sucks when you really respect the people whose writing you edit: Yo're much too careful with it 
So what I'll do is take all your comments (ronin, Thrommel, Deaf DM) and basically recreate the dialogue aspect of the thing. Look at it tomorrow (your time) and tell me what you think.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Kylearanon
Here for a while
(1/8/03 1:04:49 am)
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Re: Hmmm
Well, I am far far away from the final battle with my group but I followed this threat with growing exitement. Cause it reads more like a novel than a game.
Now, howhever, I have some questions of my own and hope they arenīt to stupid.
What is this talking about a solar at the end of the story ? Though I thought I read the adventure through I canīt remember anything about a solar. Is it something you guys made up ? And what deity is this solar serving ?
And another thing. What would you do if there wouldnīt be a character flinging himself after the orb ? Just imagine a party where the characters are not that fast in making decisions or simply not altruistic enough.
Or what if the character just donīt have disintegrates and stuff prepared. How are they to get through Larethīs wall(s) of force ? It seems like the wrong spell-preparation could simply ruin this day (all the more assuming a party has only one spellcaster).
I got lots of other questions on mind, but I guess I will ask when my party gets there. But I just love reading you people making up stuff and try to follow it .
Kyle, who feels like a newbie whenever roaming through the board
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Siobharek
Still here? Wow.
(1/8/03 1:16:18 am)
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Re: Hmmm
Good questions, I think. In the end, it'll have to depend on the players' actions up to then. If they don't have an honest disintegrate between them, then walls of force are not a good idea. In that case, I'd simply have Imix hold or defend the orb while the battle rages. Maybe he throws up walls of fire through which the party can see his and Lareth's actions.
As to the solar, he's described in the Crater Ridge Mines. He basically shows up if the PCs fiddle with the ethereal door to Tharizdun's prisons (it's somewhere near the crypts for the old clerics of Tharizdun - spectres and shadows are nearby, IIRC).
If the PCs aren't swift and resourceful enough, then one suggestion would be that the world ends or at least getss damaged. End of campaign. The PCs did well, but ultimately they did not have the grit of a true hero. Roll up new characters.
Or maybe the rest of the multiverse simply rips the Recovered Temple - gate, PCs, Imix and all - out and casts it off into a new prison. In that case, the PCs maybe have a chance of getting out, depending on whether you want to whip up a transdimensional jail-break adventure.
Or... because only one elemental prince was present, just a part of Tharizdun escapes. Not enough for him to swallow the whole world, just enough to make it slightly more unpleasant. I think that solution is the one I'd go for. But I'd definitely let the PCs die in the explosion of his escape.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Infiniti2000
Here for a while
(1/8/03 7:17:37 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Hmmm
"If they don't have an honest disintegrate between them, then walls of force are not a good idea."
I have to respectfully disagree. At this point, you need to play the bad guys to their utmost potential. If the party has no disintegrate and cannot otherwise by pass the walls (rod of cancellation, dim door, etc.), then so be it. 
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Siobharek
Still here? Wow.
(1/8/03 7:28:36 am)
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Re: Hmmm
Hm, haw, well... By that reasoning you can almost always design an adventure to be unbeatable by including things your PCs don't have.
For what it's worth, my first inclination was to say, "No disintegrate? Their own bl*ddy fault." But I think the setup should be tough - not unbeatable. And if the party doesn't have a disintegrate scroll, the encounter becomes just that - unbeatable.
Heh, we'll just have to agree to disagree, eh?
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(1/8/03 10:35:46 am)
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Re: Walls of Force
Keep in mind that the original set up I laid out was to have both Lareth and Imix sitting inside a hemispherical Wall of Force.
The nimbus being created is outside the WoF.
So in order to drop the skull into the nimbus, they have to bring down the wall.
This means the scenario is not unbeatable-- in fact the tension is built up by the fact that both parties can face off and buff up.
If your players aren't going to follow the skull into the nimbus, just stretch things out and describe the large cracks appearing in the gate to Big T's prison and the evil purple rays streaming out. Eventually they'll get the hint.
Especially when the solar begins screaming in pain from the strain of trying to hold the gate together.
(Btw, the gate description is from CRM area 129.)
-Thrommel, who notes that demi-gods swing a mean clue bat.
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