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Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(1/9/03 1:25:34 am)
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Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
Okay, last session, my group got Hedrack's attention. On his command, the spider eater riders actually managed to fish out Nilbool of the Water Temple's dead body from Lake Stalagos and knows by now quite a bit about the group.
After that (it happened at the end of a very nast fight with the Water Temple with 2 PC deaths, but the Water Temple is routed) the group went to Verbobonc for some item re-equipping and some resurrection.
Hedrack made an educated guess and sent the succubus to Verbobonc, armed with a description of the PCs. The succubus is boosted with three levels of MC bard, so she experienced little difficulty in finding out at what inn the group usually stayed. After that, she killed the prettiest serving girl at the inn and was firmly set in her disguise when teh party arriveed at Verbobonc, 2 days later.
The next night, she seduced the party rogue, and with the help of various erm, favours as well as a charm monster, now knows just about all there is to know about the group: What spells they usually cast, elementary buffs, basic tactics (who's in front, who floats around, who is protected). She has teleported back with this info and was at the end of the session back with Victor the Assassin to see what else she can do.
The party has discovered her and set up an ambush. Prior to entering the rogue's room, the succubus and Victor have placed the dead serving girl's corpse to make it look like murder. Clenched in her hand is a small piece of one of the rogue's shirts. No matter the outcome of the battle, the dead serving girl will be discovered with physical evidence pointing at the rogue.
My question - at last! - is this: Do you guys have any ideas about how this could play out? Assume that there is a judicial system well-equipped to deal with lawbreaking adventurers and that any magic discoveries must be backed by hard evidence or reliable witness statements.
TIA
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
JeffQ UK
Here for a while
(1/9/03 1:48:26 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
Funnily enough, my group are currently involved in a court case after being framed for murder (the doppelganger did it!)
Anway, here are a few bullet points I have used for my legal system
1) No magic allowed - This is based on the premise that anything that can be done magically can be counteracted or fooled magically too.
2) Burden of proof is "balance of probabilities", to my mind "beyond reasonable doubt" is too advanced a concept for the genre
3) (And probably most important) is that peoples honesty is adjudged by prior knowledge of them or by attestation. As an example (scale 1-10) a new PC in Hommlet has, effectively, zero trustworthiness, Elmo say has 10, Chatrilon has somewhere in between depending on how you want to play his prior actions in Hommlet. However if Elmo knows the PC [b]personally[/b] and is prepared to attest to their trustworthiness then they would rise to 7 or 8 with ranks 9 and 10 reserved for people of longstanding residence.
Edited by: JeffQ UK at: 1/9/03 1:49:46 am
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lawithro
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(1/9/03 1:52:51 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
The way I see it, you gotta decide how grim you want this to be for your party:
On one end of the scale, the PC's manage to reveal the deception, defeat the succubus, and become heroes.
On the other end of the scale, the rogue is arrested and sentenced to death. Perhaps the party is able to rescue him--but they have to kill several innocent city guards in the process. They become fugitives in Verbobonc, and everyone hates them.
Some things to keep in mind:
Any cleric worth his salt will begin with some simple investigation--starting with Detect Magic, Detect Evil, Zone of Truth* and Speak with Dead. A higher level cleric (the kind who might be assigned to investigate a murder involving some rather wealthy adventurers) could Raise Dead the poor girl and get her story. He could then Scry on the succubus, possibly catching her off guard.
*This can be tricky, as the cleric technically won't know if he failed his save, since it's an area spell.
Depending on your group, you might be able to do a special "Cops Session". Give all your players an NPC official to play (with some simple goals). One may be a aspiring politician, another may be the girl's father, another may be the cleric in charge of the investigation. Then let your players investigate the murder for themselves. That way, they'll be able to figure it out on their own (instead of watching your NPC's do it). If the succubus set it up right, the case against the rogue might be strong enough that they HAVE to convict him. Let the session end with the conviction, and then start up next time with the jail-break.
Good luck with it. Keep us posted.
http://cs.unca.edu/~withrola/toee |
Siobharek
Still here? Wow.
(1/9/03 1:57:27 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
Heh, lawithro, that was a very good idea! Unfortunately, the players know that the girl's a fake (and a level-draining one at that), so while it's a great idea, I don't think I can use it. As to a Raise Dead, the party might fork out the cash for one. However, the girl was killed from behind, so not much luck there.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
The guy from Belgium
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(1/9/03 2:00:45 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
well, i'm gonna post a part of my campaign log here
my party was framed with the murder of the miller, his wife and the miller's esteemed guests who were staying in his cellar
the pc's actually killed the 'guests', being chat, dunrat, nierethi...
there are witnesses to them going there armed to the teeth
there are witnesses who overheard them talking about robbing the miller and killing any witnesses (doppelganger plays the witness)
and then there is vavra, who uses her wand of change self and who is now the miller's worker, who saw the pc's killing her master and the guests
the problem is that the party never informed any authorities of the cultist's presence in the miller's house...
here's my log entry on that!
When they reached the town gates, the party noticed several heavily armed guards at the gate. After a grim nod, the party was kindly requested to report to the Inn of the Welcome Wench. Fattyboy rode there immediately, while the rest of the party wanted to drop off their loot in their house and report to the inn afterwards. They never made it home. A patrol intercepted them on the road and escorted them to the inn.
In front of the inn stood four more guards. The party was led inside by twelve guards and once inside, they saw there was only one large table left. On the far side of it were Rufus, Burne and Elmo.
Once they had all entered, the guards who had been standing outside stepped inside, and barred the door from the inside. There were now more than a dozen guards inside. Rufus spoke first, asking the party to lay down their weapons and strip off their armours.
Father Fattyboy demanded an explanation, but was cut short by Rufus who warned him that he would not ask it again friendly. He snapped his fingers, and two guards approached to help Fattyboy to take off his armour.
The party got the message and disposed of all weapons and armours. After that, they were kindly invited to site at the long table. Fattyboy sat down right in front of Rufus.
Rufus once again spoke in a grave voice and informed the party that they were now officially arrested on the charge of multiple murder. The victims were the miller, his wife and several of the miller’s guests who were staying in the miller’s cellar at the time of the murder.
There were several witnesses who had overheard the party planning the murder and rob the miller of all his money, and other witnesses who had seen Father Dumbo and some ugly goblinoid go towards the miller’s house, fully armed. That same witness had also seen Master Wolf snooping through the miller’s house one day before the murder to scout the terrain.
Yaotl burst into an outrage but was quickly silenced by a ‘silence’ spell. He then decided to give Burne (the caster responsible for the silence spell) ‘the finger’, but this resulted in a ‘hold person’ spell, which completely immobilized Yaotl, his middle finger still pointed upwards.
Rufus heard out the party’s side of the story, but wasn’t convinced by their comments. The witnesses had proven to be speaking the truth and several party members had been identified during the raid on the miller’s house.
Fattyboy then asked for a ‘discern lies’ spell or a detect evil, but since most party members were neutral or chaotic this proved nothing new. There was one thing that troubled Burne however. He was unable to read Dumbo’s mind. The reason for this seemed to be a ring of mind shielding worn by Dumbo. This raised some questions which didn’t help the party’s case: why would a cleric to Pelor be wearing such a device?
Unfortunately for the party, Questin the barbarian, who had spent some time with the party while looking for his parents, had found his parents, and had brutally executed them for leaving him in the forests to die when he was a little boy. Charged with these crimes, he was found guilty and was hanged!
Father Fattyboy tried to destroy the motive for the murder, stating the party never had any financial problems, but this was insufficient.
Rufus stated the trial would not be held in Hommlet, but in Verbobonc, and that the party would be taken there the next morning by armoured transport. Fattyboy and his companions spent the night in the castle, awaiting their deportation the next morning.
Early next morning, the party was led to an armed convoy, composed of three heavy carts. The first one was filled with soldiers, the second one was the prisoner’s transport and the third one housed all the party’s possessions.
Three days later, the party arrived in Verbobonc. They were led into a waiting room, while their initial trial was prepared. Two hours later, they were led in front of the city’s Justicar.
After some misunderstandings regarding names, Roka the slayer was nearly charged with several more crimes.
Father Dumbo took a free council since he didn’t know enough about the local rules. The only problem was that his lawyer pleaded guilty. After some fierce discussion, the council was dismissed and Yaotl opted to speak for Father Dumbo as well, knowing that if Dumbo was found guilty, his punishment would be shared by his lawyer.
The trial was going really bad for the party, with two very strong witnesses who made the party look guilty to every charge.
The first witness was the miller’s worker who had been present during Master Wolf’s visit and during Dumbo’s and Questin’s visit. He claimed to have seen the defendants murder the miller and his wife and the miller’s guests in cold blood. He had barely escaped with his own life.
The second witness was the woodcutter’s aide, who had overheard the party talk about robbing the miller of all money and eliminating anyone who stood between them and their money.
The party suspected the miller’s worker to be the Tiefling bard Vacra, who they had chased ever since this adventure began, but were unable to prove it, since they were all trapped inside an antimagic field cast by Burne, who sat right behind them.
When the party asked the clerics of Pelor to take the stand, they mentioned the intervention of an unknown paladin of Heironeous. The clerics of Pelor had not heard of or seen anyone matching the description of a paladin in Hommlet so it was dismissed.
Father Fattyboy then used his stature as paladin to demand a retrial behind closed doors, since he suspected magical interference from people in the audience. He was granted a retrial to better prepare their case at a date in the future, which would be set as soon as possible.
They were led to the dungeons, where Dumbo was given a nice cell and Fattyboy was given a very nice cell, while the rest of the party was placed in standard cells.
After nearly two weeks, there still had been no word of a new date, so Fattyboy sent a message to the Justicar. When he still hadn’t received word a few days later, he demanded to be taken to the Justicar immediately. His request was granted, and he was chained hands and feet and taken to the Justicar’s quarters.
Once he was led inside the Justicar’s quarters, the guards silently withdrew, leaving the two men alone to discuss their business. Fattyboy demanded a retrial behind closed doors, with an independent mage present to cast a constant antimagic field, so that no magic could be used to influence the trial. He also requested that the trial be held at an unknown location and that only the material witnesses be told where it would be held on the day itself, to prevent tampering with testimonies.
He was granted this favour thanks to his status as paladin to Pelor, despite the accusations. The trial date was set ten days later on a non-existent location, using a non-existing mage to perform a non-existing trial.
Ten days later, the day of truth was finally upon them. They were all blindfolded and led to a safe house on the city’s outskirts. Once there, they were led inside and their blindfold was removed. Inside were several black hooded guards, with a white dove embroidered on their black cloaks.
The new trial started with the unknown and independent mage casting an antimagic field inside. Next, the witnesses were led in, one by one. Fattyboy interviewed them all, attempting to prove the party’s innocence by proving that there was no reason to kill the miller. After all, the party never had any financial problems. This was partially successful, but it still didn’t prove their innocence.
There were two new elements however. The main incriminating witness, the miller’s worker, had died in a freak accident in the city when a merchant’s cart ran him over. He was killed on the spot, making it impossible to counter his testimony.
Another witness was also absent. The stonemason had been the victim of an armed robbery, but since he had resisted, he had been killed by his attackers.
This made the case more difficult, since both witnesses were crucial to the case!
At a given moment, Fattyboy had an idea. He asked the mage to drop the antimagic field during the woodcutter’s aide’s testimony and cast a zone of truth. Everything went as planned, and as soon as the zone of truth was active, Fattyboy once again asked the witness to repeat his statement.
The witness refused, sensing the powerful magic present in the room. Fattyboy approached the bench and explained his plan to the Justicar, who made the witness answer. At first, the witness was hesitant but after a few moments, he regained his composure and once again stated he had overheard the party talking about the miller’s treasure and how they were going to kill him to get to the money.
Since there was no conclusive evidence to prove the party’s innocence, but there was also no conclusive evidence to prove their guilt, the Justicar made a temporary ruling.
The party received three months to prove their innocence by any means necessary. Should they fail to prove their innocence during this period, they would be found guilty and sentenced to death.
On their hand, the mage crafted the ‘tattoo of the accused’, a special magical tattoo that stated the accused nature and was impossible to remove, except by proving one’s innocence.
The party was released on parole and their house in Hommlet was seized as collateral.
The clock started ticking for the party, who now had less than ninety days to find a way to prove their innocence.
In short: the justicar is in charge of the legal system, normally there is either an antimagic field on the defendant's cage and a zone of truth on the witness stand
that's about all i can offer...
enjoy!
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sheetghoul
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(1/9/03 2:02:31 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
It depends on how crafty the succubus is. For example, the serving girl will have been dead two days before the PCs even arrive in town, probably three days when she is found. Does the succubus have the power (some spell or other) to keep a corpse fresh? The girl will have been missing three days. During that time, the PCs were travelling towards Verbobonc. Did they stay in any inns or were they seen by travelers who could vouch for them?
If the PCs can present the corpse of a succubus, that would make the rogue's story of being set up (assuming they come clean to the authorities) very believable. If not: the serving girl worked at the inn for two days before the PCs arrived, i.e., she was seen by co-workers. If she suddenly vanishes, that too might be seen as corroborating the PCs' account. However, if the PCs fail to engage her in comabt and she runs to the authorities reporting (perhaps) abuse at the hands of a PC, the whole thing can turn very bad very quickly. Think vile! The best strategy for the succubus would be to avoid combat (teleporting away) and have victor attack solo. If the PCs kill victor, she could have the PCs arrested easily (using her charm power when being interrogated by the watch, if necessary), pending further investigations. Once in prison, further assasination attempts can be arranged.
Are the PCs powerful/rich enough to pay local priests to use Speak with Dead or other divinations on the corpse? Could they be accused of fabricationg an alibi by use of teleportation spells?
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Grumgarr
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(1/9/03 2:47:35 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
Yeah - it's a tricky one.
Note that the 3e Speak With Dead actually talks to the corpse - not the spirit of the departed. This changes the power of this spell substantially from earlier versions.
Anything that the person knew in life will be known by the corpse, but if the girl was completely taken by surprise and had no idea who killed her (if she wasn't even aware there was anyone around, for instance), neither does her corpse.
And I agree that magical divinations are NO basis for a legal system, and definitely shouldn't be admissable as evidence, no matter how 'reliable' the diviner. What the PCs (and the authorities) 'know' and what they can back up with convincing evidence are very different things.
Physical evidence and witness testimony should form the backbone of legal disputes. And remember that witnesses can be coerced or invented, and that testimony is therefore less valuable in some cases.
Reputation (of accused and witnesses) should also play a part when there's a grey area, but shouldn't over-ride evidence.
Have a look at the Code for the Watch Investigator (I think that's what it's called) in Song and Silence, if you have it. In Verbobonc there should be a notable 'homocide' investigator or two - think Colombo! 
Grumgarr - who says 'Thank you for your time - you've been very helpful. Errr....there is just one other thing...'
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Siobharek
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(1/9/03 2:54:30 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
I'm using teh Code of the Watch as the "legal constitution" of most Greyhawk nations. But yeah, I should probably develop an investigator or two.
Corpse condition is going to be a problem. Maybe a brisk fire at her residence coupled with a sighting of Victor (disguised as the rogue) would help...
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
madfox
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(1/9/03 3:51:55 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
Quote:
However, the girl was killed from behind, so not much luck there.
Bad thinking on the succubus part. If you really want to frame somebody in a world were you know people can speak with the dead there are much better tactics. What if the succubus killed the girl while in the form of a rogue? Sure, the rogue attacked from behind, but there was that mirror the rogue just happened to have overlooked... Remember, you placed a piece of cloth in her hands, so she cannot have been killed with a quick stroke from behind. You also must come with a good reason why the corpse is there. In a world where people can speak with the dead it is really needed to dispose a corpse even more so then in RL (where by now corpses more or less do speak  ).
Anyway, framing somebody is never something that can be done in the heat of the moment. That much is even true in a world without magic. If it is done in the heat of the moment, it would at most be a distraction method to give the real culprit some time to flee or prepare defenses.
As far as the law is concerned, unless Verbobonc has a real modern law system you should realize that things as "innocent until proven guilty", "seperation of solving the crime and judging people" and "beyond reasonable doubt" are unheard off. As others have said, testimonies are based on reputation even more so then nowadays. Especially the fact that "innocent until proven guilty" is not used can be a real pain. It might not be the task of the guards to proof the PC is guilty, but the task of the PCs to proof he is NOT guilty. If I remember correctly, it is ruled by St.Cuthber people? Those are not known for their patience and thoroughness. They might well act quicker then is healthy in a typical fantasy campaign. After all, since death is not really final. Killing a criminal and later ressurecting them if somebody proofed him to be innocent might well be an option Though perhaps that might be taking things a bit too far
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Siobharek
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(1/9/03 4:18:35 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
Hah, I'd forgotten about the St. Cuthbert angle. He's a bit of a golden boy with the Trithereon crowd, and Trithereon and St C.'s clergies aren't exactly friendly.
This is great, just great.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
smetzger
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(1/9/03 5:37:38 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
Other things to consider:
1) Is torture of the accused part of the process?
2) Is the Verbabonc legal system a maze of laws, procedures, and red tape like the U.S.?
3) Is the Verbabonc legal system a quick and dirty system?
4) In the Roman Empire a Roman Citizen could apeal to Ceasar if he felt wrongfully accused/arrested. It could take a year or more to actually have the apeal heard. So, how important is citizenship?
Also, think about what the penalty would be. Wiergild, imprisonment, death, loss of a limb are all options.
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Corran Webster
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(1/9/03 7:12:56 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
One thing to keep in mind is that even if speak with dead may not reveal who the attacker was, it should be able to reveal the actual time of death ("What day and time were you killed?"), which should give some credence to the PCs story, particularly if they have strong alibis for that time ("I was having tea with the captain of the militia in Hommlett.")
While not completely exonerating (maybe the rogue snuck in to town a few days before the rest of the party to do the deed), it does at least raise the question of who was impersonating the murdered victim for those few days.
Corran
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Siobharek
Still here? Wow.
(1/9/03 7:16:59 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
I think what I'll do is that I'll get the rest of the PCs in on the investigation through their Trithereon connections. That way, I can have them make suggestions. What you've done so far is brilliant. It'll help me get through this and anticipate some of my players' actions (I hope!)
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
RiPa UK
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(1/9/03 1:04:29 pm)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
JeffQ UK said 1) No magic allowed - This is based on the premise that anything that can be done magically can be counteracted or fooled magically too.
Although I do agree with that in principle then I wonder what is the point of the spells in the first place.
Secondly, if your "legal" system is based on possibilities then the PCs could argue that if in a "Zone of Truth" then they probably cannot lie.
Therefore I would allow the spells but don't rely upon them.
One of the problems I find as a DM when it comes to legal matters is the players have a tendency to think that the DM is taking control. You have to play the game fairly but not make the NPCs pushovers. However PCs find it hard to believe that you don't think the judge will instantly believe them and let them go, after several members of his jurisdiction suddenly turn up dead.
I've had one game collapse thanks to PC believing I was being too strict when I announced they had to prove they're killings were justified.
In these situations you definitely have to tread carefully
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JeffQ UK
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(1/11/03 8:58:22 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
The answer re "No magic allowed" is quite simple..who would you rather believe, Old Ned who lives down the road and who you've known for years or some fancy dan adventuring cleric who you don't know from Adam?
To my mind the huge majority of people know nothing about the actual practicalities of magic, how would a rural magistrate know if the the spell cast was really a zone of truth or an illusion of the person saying exactly what the evil wizard wanted him to say?
Primitive legal systems were based on perceptions of character more often than not, apart from anything else if you allow magic in the courtroom I bet your thieves guild isn't too well populated.
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wuhan
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(1/11/03 9:23:51 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
The succubus is 11 hd of evil outsider.
Just going into the tavern and having a paladin Detect Evil, will have an overwhelming evil aura that lasts for 1d6 days.
Now unless you gave him the demonstone...
"Lords of Death. Street gang. Punks from Chinatown." |
Siobharek
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(1/11/03 10:30:11 am)
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Re: Need Help and Advice for In-Game Legalities
Wuhan, that's a very good point, indeed. Should my hapless party think about it, I'll be better prepared because of that reminder. Thanks.
I sat yesterday making a list of the hard evidence that can be found as well as detailing a City "Detective" - who worships St. Cuthbert and takes a few clues from some well-placed suggestions.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
RiPa UK
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(1/11/03 12:04:08 pm)
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Don't plan to leave!
I have been concidering your problem, as stated in your first post. I think that obtaining hard evidence would be difficult with the NO MAGIC rule, and is one of the reasons I have difficulty with that. Take in the situation you described, the Serving Maid was killed before the PCs arrived in the city. By establishing that they would have gone a long way to clearing their names, but proving it without magic, like speak with dead, would be very difficult.
I would like to suggest that others out there who have placed their characters in trouble with the law, give some idea, of the type of hard evidence they left behind for the PC and investigators to find.
I was particurally impressed with JeffQ UK s idea in his post "It's too prescious" and the thought of accusing my PCs (two role-players and four roll-players) of similiar crimes for them to do a Perry Mason is intriguing.
So any help would be apreciated
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Siobharek
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(1/11/03 1:09:16 pm)
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Re: Don't plan to leave!
Here's the evidence I've decided they would follow. In keeping with the rest of teh adventure, I'm cutting my group some slack by having the succubus mess up a few things. As I see it, she hasn't been out much for a while because she needed to monitor the Chamber of Hate. So when she got to Verbobonc, she was armed with directions to find a maid at the inn, kill her, impersonate her, and seduce the member most likely to fall prey to her charms.
She drew the maid (for a definition, see the BoVD) before killing her, but then just left the body in her room. She did kill the maid disguised, but only disguised as a man in a large cloak. It was not until Victor arrived, 2 days later, that he thought up the perfect way of framing the PC.
So he created a crudely timed incendiary device and plans to have the succubus run out of the burning building disguised as the rogue.
The clues for the PCs are as follow:
The dead maid has a holy symbol of Trithereon clenched in her fist. The symbol is clearly made in Verbobonc. The rogue is from the City of Greyhawk .
The incendiary device consists of a candle with some waxed cord wound around it. When the candle burns suffieciently far down (several hours' worth), the cord burns, breaks, and drops 3 flasks of alchemist's fire on the corpse. For some reason the candle survives the fire (Search DC 25 to find the candle. Another DC 25 check to find a piece of the cord). The candle is vermillion in colour and of a quality that can only be found at one chandler in Verbobonc: Bensar's Wax Works. At Bensar's they can tell that they only began making vermillion candles that morning. The succubus stayed in disguise at the inn all day. What person lets a candle burn for that long while being away?
The maid's hands show deep lacerations in her palms, as if she's grasped piano string. It's from the sucubus' hair which the poor girl grasped as she was being throttled.
The maid was strangled (Heal DC 15). Before that, she was drawn (Heal DC 30). She had been dead for 3 days when the fire broke out (Heal DC 35).
I'm pretty sure that those clues will help a long way. What do you think?
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
RiPa UK
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(1/11/03 3:26:28 pm)
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re: Don't plan to leave
Yes I do like your ideas.... Search is a rogues speciality, heal a clerics: different players can find out different things. I might also include some Gather Information rolls. The Succubus was about for two days before Victor, she must have ventured out in either disguise (cloaked man, or seving maid). Gather Info may reveal that a strange man left her rooms, or the serving maid left her room but totally ignored her best friend on the street, acting as if she didn't know him (I often feel that gather information is one of the least used skills, simply because DMs actually have to prepare for it).
JeffQ UK also mentioned how magistrates may not understand the workings of magic. In this I disagree, in Verbobonc there would be some high powered clerics and wizards more than capable of determining spells. Even in Hommlet the Cannoness Y'dey is tenth level and has a 10 on spellcraft. I'm sure her word that the spell cast was correct would be accepted, and so it's effects also accepted.
This really leads us to the last and most important question. How can PCs prove their innocence, if at the end of the day they are new to an area and so not believed. (After all if "Old Ned" says one thing and the fancy-pants cleric says another, even if the cleric can point to these clues, would "Old Ned" still be believed over the cleric).
In this I think you have to put a certain limit on what the PCs have to do to "prove" their innocence. Where is that line?
Edited by: RiPa UK at: 1/13/03 3:38:54 pm
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 Kadh2000 
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(1/11/03 10:49:59 pm)
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Re: re: Don't plan to leave
How do the PCs prove they're innocent. First, the DM decides how difficult he wants that to be. Then he provides clues based on that level of difficulty. Remember, this isn't really a legal question. It's a how do I DM a certain type of encounter question.
Don't think out the specifics until you know what result you want. How much do you want this to distract the PCs from their primary goal? How much growth will they get out of this? It should have already taught them to think before they act which is already a great thing.
As GM, what clues they find and how useful the clues are is up to you to decide. You don't have to construct a perfect murder or even an imperfect one. Decide what your goal is and then allow the PCs to find a way (or three I think was the ideal number mentioned somewhere) to reach it.
Just like in a TV show, while the characters in it are afraid they won't reach a successful prosecution of a case, the scriptwriter already knows the answer. Run the game with the desired goal in mind, allow the PCs to discover what will let them reach it, and go on. Don't overthink this one.
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Tanelorn or bust
Edited by: Kadh2000 at: 1/11/03 10:52:19 pm
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