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Eltern
Here for a while
(1/13/03 7:28:08 am)
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CRM Infighting
What happens when one temple destroys another completely? Does Hedrack get involved?

The water temple, oddly enough, is on the up and up in the CRM IMC. The party took out the main gate and the earth temple, sans uskathoth and snearak, and then ran all the way back to Hommlet. In the mean time, the two remaining Earth temple members tried to get to the earth door, to seek aid from the Outer Fane. The water temple talked to them as they went through, learned of their plight, and killed them :evil So then, with the earth temple and main gate areas completely uninhabited, and only the air bridge complex to stand in their way, the Water temple has Expanded Southwest Bigtime :p There seems to be a little time before the party returns to CRM, so I have time to make decisions concerning the logistics of all this. How easily could the water temple take on the air bridge complex? If they could somehow drive the owlbears and cave apes in before them to soften up the complex, it'd work well. Do any of the water temple folk have stoneshape? They could simply seal away some of the more difficult combatants until they starve to death ;) But I don't know how well this would work. How many casualties and such?
Also, how many reinforcements could the water temple get? They will be spread -thin- if they take all that land, but they're power hungry, they'll take it. Can the bugbears be allied with at all? More kuotoas recruited? Does the water temple know of the aboleth deal in the web enhancement, and if so could the kuotoas from there be enlisted? I really want to make this work, as the party is planning on returning to a completely empty main gate area :lol "What?! Frog-men? Where'd these come from?!"

Eltern

Zenon
Here for a while
(1/14/03 6:19:02 am)
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Re: CRM Infighting
Wow! OK, I'll try to answer these one at a time they way I'd run it IMC:

Quote:
What happens when one temple destroys another completely? Does Hedrack get involved?


Nope, Hedrack doesn't care. Survival of the Fitest and all that. Also being Chaotic Evil and Mad tends to hamper your judgement. He won't care until two temples are totally taken out (stated in the module).

Quote:
How easily could the water temple take on the air bridge complex?


They would probably want to try to consolidate the new ground they have taken first before trying this.

Quote:
If they could somehow drive the owlbears and cave apes in before them to soften up the complex, it'd work well.


Until Fachish summoned up that Large Air Elemental to open a can of whoop on them all. With Fly, Reach and DR it would wipe the floor with them. Kellial is no push over either, especially if Fachish awards him the Sword of Air.

Quote:
Do any of the water temple folk have stoneshape?


3rd level cleric spell. If they can cast 3rd level spells, they could pray for it. Remember, it's not "Wall of Stone", they would have to seal an existing door with it (which could still be broken down).

Quote:
Also, how many reinforcements could the water temple get?


If you're nice, just apply the re-inforcement rules in the module, but only look at the water temple area and count what you move out of it into other areas as losses. If you're nasty, look at both the "losses" in the water temple area, and then look at how understrength the other areas are and generate re-inforcements for both areas. I would use either human warriors or more kuo-toa as replacements.

Quote:
Does the water temple know of the aboleth deal in the web enhancement, and if so could the kuotoas from there be enlisted?


That's a personal call you'd have to make in your campaign. Mine party never dealt with the water temple at all (they saw the first pool with the rowboats, turned around and went the other way1 :D )

Quote:
I really want to make this work, as the party is planning on returning to a completely empty main gate area "What?! Frog-men? Where'd these come from?!"


Make up some handouts, notes from the higher-ups in the water temple to they troops, ones that kind of explain to the water temple troops what is going on - "Hold this new area until we can regain strength, etc". Give out some info so that your players get a feel for what's happening.

Hope this helps!

Edited by: Zenon at: 1/14/03 6:22:13 am
Eltern
Here for a while
(1/14/03 5:55:11 pm)
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Air bridge assault
It seems to me that the air bridge complex needs to be "dealt with" before the water temple can truly get ahold of the earth temple and main gate complex. I don't think there's anyway for the Water temple to 'recruit' them, so just taking them out seems to be the best deal.

Ah, Zenon, I think you are referring to the Air TEMPLE, not the Air BRIDGE. It seems that with all the big guns in 211, the apes and owlbears could do some big damage before the guys from 211 really got in the mix, and even then they're not that bad. ::shrug:: What's the best possible attack plan for the water temple on the air bridge complex, with the least losses?

Could the water temple bribe/convert any of the warriors?

Eltern

Kelashein
Here for a while
(1/14/03 10:43:33 pm)
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Re: Air bridge assault
The warriors are certainly bribable. They come & go and are probably reassigned (at random; for kicks). If you have the free time, run the attack of Water v Air Bridge just to see how well you do. I honestly think it's unnecessary however, because there is a tunnel that bypasses that zone. Besides, attacking a bridge is likely to invite attention from the OF. Unless Kelashein is prepared to deal with that crew, she would likely just "reinhabit" the area that has been cleared, claim credit for destroying Earth and hold the zone until a new leadership structure has emerged. Can't leave that kind of thing unguarded, now, can we? The official story should be that Water destroyed Earth in self defense (the two survivors were trying to kill Kelashein, see?). Someone else attacked the Main Gate, because Water would "NEVER" attack a place like THAT. It's there to protect us and is a DMZ....

Trithereon
Here to stay
(1/15/03 6:23:53 am)
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Re: CRM Infighting
Quote:
What happens when one temple destroys another completely? Does Hedrack get involved
?

For what it's worth, in the General Notes for the Earth Temple (pg. 101) it says: "The Earth Temple suffered a crippling defeat at the hands of the Fire Temple months ago. It was so terrible that all clerics and followers of the temple that survived fled the mines altogether. To replace them, the doomdreamers contacted their allies among the troglodytes. The cult of Tharzidun is much more common among the hidden ranks of troglodytes than among surface peoples. It was simple to get recruits to serve the Earth Temple from their ranks".

Therefore, someone gets involved to recruit new Temple forces. Is it Hedrack? Is it Nanquent? Or is it literally a Doomdreamer (ie. First, Second, etc...)?

It seems clear that while the doomdreamers encourage rivalry that they don't abide the complete destruction of any elemental Temple. They actively work to replace the loss of Temple forces. To quote the book a bit more, "This rivalry goes so far as to erupt occasionally into widespread violence, but is usually limited to spying, assassination, betrayals and sabotage."

Who steps in and what they do is up to you, but I don't think the doomdreamers will allow the Water Temple to dominate the Earth Temple area ... unless they have uncovered the Champion of Elemental Evil and their plans are about to come to fruition. In that case, they may not care about the CRM at all as they have served their purpose.

bloodyhellman
Looking around
(1/15/03 6:52:07 am)
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Re: CRM Infighting
I'd have Hedrak see if any faithful of other races want to take over the earth temple area. They could be waiting in the wings as they wanted that spot but didn't get along with the other Earth temple clergy that were resident. Maybe some Grimlocks or something else earth related?
This complex is a prestige spot that hidden clergy of the Elder Elemental god would love to have. They go from having a temple under a city (likely afraid of the local authorities)somewhere to a major temple that runs the local town where there is room for advancement. It's kinda like if a bishop dies at the Vatican won't someone want their place? You betcha!

Alternately they could just conscript alot of Orcs from the near tribe to bolster the Water temple forces.

Edited by: bloodyhellman at: 1/15/03 12:04:12 pm
Eltern
Here for a while
(1/15/03 2:46:19 pm)
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asdf
Hmm, so, A) water temple occupies the earth temple area "for the time being," or B) the doomdreamers step in. Which should it be? It's going to be about 5 weeks before the party returns (Back to Hommlet, then to Verbebonc, back to hommlet, then to Rastor, maybe). So the water temple -could- have full control over that whole area. Or the earth temple could be alive and kicking. Vote? ;)

Eltern

bloodyhellman
Looking around
(1/15/03 3:33:49 pm)
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Re: asdf
I'd rather have another race fill the void personally. It makes more sense to have another clergy fill the void fast than the slow gain of the water temple.

msherman
Here for a while
(1/15/03 3:56:03 pm)
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Re: asdf
Quote:
I'd rather have another race fill the void personally. It makes more sense to have another clergy fill the void fast than the slow gain of the water temple.

Probably both would happen. First the Water temple would expand into the area they've conquered, which would leave them spread out and easy to attack. Then, the outer fane would restore the balance by recruiting an external force from some other earth temple to come and attack the water temple, and reclaim the Earth altar.

Kelashein
Here for a while
(1/15/03 4:18:07 pm)
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Re: asdf
The New Earth wouldn't likely have to fight with Water. The only reason Water would hold the area is for the prestige of having controlled an area outside their borders. They would only do this as long as considered necessary; when new troops are sent in to repopulate, Water leaves with a nod & a salute. The border might be a little different than in the past...for example, Water might control the room with the Owlbears. Think of the chaotic wars in Europe: when a war was concluded, the bounty would be a single province--thus the two countries would both survive (most of the royalty was related and wars weren't about killing the enemy king, they were about killing the people and reshaping a border). If Water tried to keep the Earth area after newbies arrived, they would probably get a timely visit from the OF telling them to go back home, or else.

Meanwhile, Kelashein gets the prestige that properly belongs to your party. I think that what Monte was getting at when he said that the PARTY wouldn't receive OF attention until two temples had been sacked is meaning that the PARTY won't get their attention until the CRM has suffered major losses due to the PARTY. Temples fight amongst themselves all the time and when one destroys the other, someone (IMC it is Naquent) fetches a new crew. Since IYC Water will likely take credit for destroying Water, your PCs might get a short break from getting the attention of the OF, especially if 5 weeks pass before they return. If survivors in the CRM are aware of the PCs presence, Water can claim to have driven your group off (yet more prestige for Kelashein). Perhaps the New Earth will be Kobolds, Goblins or Hobgoblins? Kobolds are the most interesting & the best at setting traps but Goblins & Hobgoblins can be interesting foes if played right (and there are enough of them). Maybe Urolax could be recruited & the Bugbears will be the leadership of the New Temple....?

I would roll dice to see how many new forces have arrived & if the more than half of the Upper-Ups have been replaced, go ahead & give them a full-complement of Leadership types (but maybe not yet full strength regular troops). Perhaps when the PCs next arrive in Rastor there will be some shady types recruiting for Earth.

Eltern
Here for a while
(1/22/03 6:47:49 pm)
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al;skf
So how is it, then, that Kelashein thinks that she will rule all of the Temple? Becoming a doomdreamer? Why make have all these plans for conquering the fire temple and allying with the bugbears if she can never actually -conquer- anyone?

Eltern

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