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AshaThoth
Looking around
(1/17/03 10:54 am)
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Tharizdun has HOW MANY Divine Ranks???
So I was just perusing my Tharizdun stats from DRAGON magazine and it hit me... this one goes to 11.

Only, that seems...wrong... somehow. Tharizdun should be the baddest of the bad. How in the name of Pelor's petticoat could an intermediate deity possibly scare the rest of the pantheon into locking him up in his own demiplane? How could they possibly be afraid that this yahoo heralds the End of Existence as We Know It (TM)?

Does anyone have any alternative stats for the 'Dun-man? Mainly I'm interested because I'm attempting to fit his "missing" avatar into my campaign. (My sketchy idea is that he doesn't just inhabity the Spike... he IS the spike -- not to mention the mysterious power to which even the Triad must answer).

ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(1/17/03 12:00 pm)
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Re: Tharizdun has HOW MANY Divine Ranks???
Perhaps he was more of a bad-a** back in the day before he was imprisoned? Nowadays, I see his following being very small, which in some systems is related to the deity's own strength. That doesn't mean he couldn't wreak untold havoc in the short term after release before anyone could get their hands on him again. Note that this is what the cult thinks/wants to happen and what is in long-lost lore. What big-T really wants or is really able to do is up to him (the DM ;) ).

One other counter might be that other than the solar, there isn't a huge force protecting his prison and there isn't any direct deity involvement implied in the module near the end. Maybe it's just because it really is super-secret, but maybe then again, the other deities have bigger fish to fry and don't consider him (right or wrong) a serious threat to themselves now (maybe they've 'forgotten':) ).

Just some ideas to explain his status in the pantheon in the released materials....



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Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(1/17/03 1:45 pm)
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ezSupporter
Re: Tharizdun has HOW MANY Divine Ranks???
"Only, that seems...wrong... somehow."

Maybe those were the stats for his pinky.

"Does anyone have any alternative stats for the 'Dun-man'?"

Did you read the one in the BoB? Search under Paragon Umbral Blot.

Zagig
Here for a while
(1/17/03 2:05 pm)
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Re: Tharizdun has HOW MANY Divine Ranks???
Someone, somewhere suggested that those were the stats for Big T's avatar. On the BoB, there are some links to Tharizdun info and one of those links mentions an avatar that existed in an old Greyhawk adventure. So, Big T sends out an avatar every 200 years or so.

chicken in disguise
Here for a while
(1/17/03 2:29 pm)
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Re: Tharizdun has HOW MANY Divine Ranks???

I made the decision that the 11 ranks shown in Dragon magazine were Tharizdun's effective divine rank. In other words, Big T has divine rank 11 while still being trapped within his prison plane.

IMC, however, there were roughly forty to fifty knowngods who were destroyed the the war to imprison him (many more lost to time) and it was entire multiverse (good, evil, law, chaos, and balance) against just him. The gods presented in LGG are the survivors or those who came later.

IMO, I really love the idea of Tharizdun being a Paragon Pseudonatural Umbral Blot. I'll even give him a Con score (base 10) rather than being a construct (although I doubt my game will go that far). The Pseudonatural template gives Big T a whole slew of tentacle rakes. I envision him looking like a giant black sun (one of his symbols) with the umbral blot part being the surface and flailing purple tentacles being the rays.

Brandon Aiken (a.k.a. da chicken)

Lunus Quelnegarde
Here for a while
(1/17/03 3:37 pm)
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Re: Tharizdun has HOW MANY Divine Ranks???
If Tharizdun got out, no stat block would be needed... everything except him would die this time. Well, maybe a few gods would be able to run away, but creation would be destroyed.

Tharizdun, bound by the gods and half asleep is *still* an intermediate god.

-Next part Off Topic, sorry-

Tharizdun released... well I don't think it's necessary to give him stats. By doing so it implies he could be beaten. He can't be beaten, only trapped.

I believe Gygax envisioned the end of Oerth (and the multiverse - as in everything) as Tharizdun being released and destroying it all, then Master Entropy sneak attacking Tharizdun and the two battling it out until their mutual destruction. And so ended all and nothing.

Of course we can just hope this doesn't happen in the span of our campaigns. If it did it would be odd playing on an apocalyptic Oerth trying to gather the Theorparts once again to trap Tharizdun before everything is destroyed.

morbiczer
Here for a while
(1/17/03 5:02 pm)
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Re: Tharizdun has HOW MANY Divine Ranks???
Which DRAGON would this be?

HarrowedSmiley
Here for a while
(1/17/03 7:34 pm)
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Re: Tharizdun has HOW MANY Divine Ranks???
The way I thought of it for my game is kind of like this.

The gods have rules. In the FR it's Ao, the "over-god", he inforces the rules ... kinda of a level playing field idea. All the gods, mostly, go by the rules. Tharizdun cheats and ignores the rules ... this is what makes him so dangerous.

Kinda of like the guy in baseball that takes the bat with him to make sure that he can clear the bases.

INC the characters are trying to determine how Thar has that ability that the rest of the gods don't. Especially since Thar has shown signs of waking ...

In god we trust. All <BR>
others we monitor <BR>

NSA

Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(1/21/03 9:25 am)
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Re: Tharizdun has HOW MANY Divine Ranks???
I took a completely different approach. While I go with the idea of Big T being weakened from his imprisonment, his greatest danger wasn't that he was all-powerful, it was that he didn't play by the rules.

In his Madness, Big T won't accept one of the fundamental laws of the universe...you don't directly intervene in the mortal plane. As such, the problem with Big T, and why he was imprisoned, was that he was merrily going about destroying things, bringing entropy, and just...well...being insane. It took "all the gods" because of the vast difficulty of killing a god permanently, and hence imprisonment being a better choice.

IMVOT (In My View of Things), Big T didn't off "40 or 50" gods in the imprisoning scenerio...perhaps one or two that were messengers or scouts from the roundup.

The advantage of this point of view is that if Big T does get loose, it's not the "end of everything", but it does mean that he unleashes vast destruction, and causes the deities to have to "come down" and deal with him again. There's a lot of expendables and unfortunate casualties that comes from a fight like this, and it will be the "end of the world" for the poor fools who get caught in the way.



Do bees really care if one bear can kill the other one or not? Fact of the matter...the hive is torn apart, and there's a whole lot of dead bees who's stings aren't affecting the bear much.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Grumgarr
Here for a while
(1/21/03 9:44 am)
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Re: My god is bigger than your god!
IMC an avatar of the Dark God was summoned by the armies of darkness - they worshipped this thing blindly, and it tore indiscriminately into ally and foe alike. They called their god Gul'darr (roll the rrr like in 'Enemy Mine') but guess who they really worshipped?
Some people called the avatar the Tarrasque.
Great fight to end a campaign BTW - plus there was (I couldn't believe the match) a big old Sphere of Annihilation for the finale too.

Of course, this was all before RttToEE - and before a leap to 3E with a biiig jump in the timeline.

Now, I have this chap Iuz turning up in Faerun. Weird? Well yeah, maybe.
In the Realms, where Iuz is an unknown quantity (the PCs know a little of the Greyhawk background of Iuz, and that he's not 'native' to Faerun) it's easy...Demigod-power Ius >is< little T, the new avatar of Big T, hence his involvement with the original ToEE - though he doesn't know it.
He's setting up shop (a new kingdom he can call Iuz) in Vaasa/Damara, recently vacated by the Witch-King Zhengyi, which has other characters in the campaign independently worried (they have no idea there's a RttToEE connection, though they players just started going ".......oh!").

And I agree that an uber-power is not quite where T is at - I like to think of him as the Lucifer opposite Ao - Ao doesn't want him to destroy everything, but Ao IMC is guardian of countless worlds - if T gets free he can go on a spree for a while, then will get dealt with by divine deus-ex-machina.
Destroying >everything< is beyond T's power anyway - world-shaking cataclysm? chaos and random desrtuction? rain of fire? earthquake? flood? tornado? - now that, he can manage.

I like th idea of 'One Evil behind all Evils' and the players like enduring villains - the First may even become their arch-enemy.

Grumgarr

ruleslawyer EZB
Here for a while
(1/21/03 2:30 pm)
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Big T's DvR
I use the avatar interpretation. This also neatly generates a DvR for Big T of 22: Overpower time. If released from imprisonment, he'd be capable of defeating any individual god in the GH or FR pantheons, and even beyond conventional deific stats. Invincible except under particular circumstances.

IMC, Tharizdun is the direct counterpart to Ao/Io/Ea/Eru, the creator of the multiverse. Balance rules the cosmos, and as such the creative impulse (Ao) cannot exist without an opposite destructive force. However, Ao won a decisive tactical advantage: he created destructive entities (the deities of the FR, my campaign world) to aid him in combatting and imprisoning Big T. Thus, the underpinning of my campaign world is that its very existence is a consequence of mere luck and a slight tactical advantage. A slightly scary notion, perhaps...

I plan to interlink RttToEE and the Banewarrens and scale scenarios up and up until I eventually pit the PCs against a mad god (Cyric) who seeks to unleash Tharizdun upon the universe. Big T thus isn't even really a villain IMC; he's a weapon.

ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(1/21/03 2:44 pm)
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Re: Big T's DvR
Quote:
IMC, Tharizdun is the direct counterpart to Ao/Io/Ea/Eru, the creator of the multiverse. Balance rules the cosmos, and as such the creative impulse (Ao) cannot exist without an opposite destructive force. However, Ao won a decisive tactical advantage: he created destructive entities (the deities of the FR, my campaign world) to aid him in combatting and imprisoning Big T. Thus, the underpinning of my campaign world is that its very existence is a consequence of mere luck and a slight tactical advantage. A slightly scary notion, perhaps...


I just want to say for the record that this is one very cool idea. Makes me second-guess not relocating to FR! I had considered it early on...



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Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(1/21/03 4:47 pm)
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Tharizdun theories
In my totally non-canon opinion, the dread threat of Tharizdun is that he can leech divine power from the other gods and the prayers of their worshippers.

Thus, the more effort they expend to combat him, the more powerful he becomes. The more the faithful rally to their gods to protect them, the bigger infusion of divine energy Big T gets.

This explains how he can infiltrate other religions - like the sect of Lolth and Zuggtmoy and the EEE - and gain power from their worship. It also explains why every other portfolio out there conspired against him.

So in order to defeat Tharizdun, the gods have to reduce themselves (and everything else) to nothing. He's not a god of entropy (if he had his way, everything would be remade in an image of dark chaos and icky tentacles) rather he's a god that can only be destroyed by entropy.

Rather than destroy themselves and all creation, the gods sought to contain Tharizdun. Still, even in his prison he can leech off others' worshippers and slowly bring about his own release.

Just my little wacky theory on what makes him such a great behind the scenes villain.

-Thrommel, who if he had his way, would make pizza a healthy food.

Edited by: Thrommel at: 1/21/03 4:48:27 pm
LordGuest
Here for a while
(1/21/03 5:53 pm)
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obligatory subject line
I really like that, Thrommel. It's a very cool idea.

dregoth00
Looking around
(2/10/03 4:06 am)
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Re: Tharizdun has HOW MANY Divine Ranks???
here it comes,
PC's can grow in power, pc's(mortals) can become gods so why couldn't the gods grow in power.
so big T is listed as having Divine rank 11 and he was imprisoned like a [b]VERY[/b] long time ago so maybe the gods now have grown in power and were less than dr11 in those days, which would have make big T dangerous then, but being imprisoned he got stuck with dr11 while everyone else grew in power.
so he doesn't actually have to have the ability to destroy the world, cause the threat alone should suffice because of his past

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