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Abelard
Still here? Wow.
(1/24/03 12:18:28 pm)
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Advancing some CRM creatures and NPCs
OK, my party is now 8th-9th level.
What do you think about advancing a couple of creatures to make them more challenging to the group for future CRM activities? Primarily, I'm thinking of advancing the bebelith and perhaps Vranthis. Especially the bebelith, which is just not going to be a good "big scary" anymore unless I advance it a little.
Also, some NPCs are going to level up - mainly, Water Temple personnel, who should be getting some experience from setting up the PC's successful attack on the Fire Temple. I know I can just wing this part, but does anyone have any systematic way of figuring out how and when to do this?
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 Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(1/24/03 12:36:49 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Advancing some CRM creatures and NPCs
"...I'm thinking of advancing the bebelith..." 
It's already CR 9! If your players know anything about a bebilith, they will be scared as soon as they see it appear. Especially the fighters with good armor.
Perhaps, you could just give Vranthis and/or the bebilith maximum hit points?
"I know I can just wing this part, but does anyone have any systematic way of figuring out how and when to do this?"
Good question. I'd also like to hear about any ideas. One thing you could do is assume that normally anyone is halfway to the next level. If that person is in good standing (like Tessimon for instance) s/he would be 3/4 of the way to the next level. Then, you just keep track of what changes. Determining how much XP a bad guy gets is not easy however. Perhaps, you can just decide if you want a particular person to level, count the number of XP they would need and add the same number to all the others who would have participated.
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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(1/24/03 2:27:45 pm)
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Re: Advancing some CRM creatures and NPCs
the bebilith is not enough of a challenge???
if it gets in one good hit, its bye bye armor... its web ability is also quite lethal... damage is normal for your party level, but still... the bebilith is not meant to be advanced further...
vranthis could be made older and thus stronger... but beware the eternal trap! advanced enemies means more xp which means heavier challenges required, which leads to heavier monsters which leads to even more xp... etc etc...
i wouldnt touch em, just make them play smarter, gang up on your party, coordinate strikes and stuff...just my (and many fellow dm's) opinion...
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Abelard
Still here? Wow.
(1/24/03 4:26:57 pm)
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the bebelith
Sure, the bebelith looks tough on paper, but I don't think it'll stack up too well against my party.
No one has really great armor - there is a mithril shirt I think, and some +1 leather, either of which it would certainly suck to lose, but there's no one with precious magic plate mail.
The wizard is now ninth level, which means he can make +3 magic arrows with Greater Magic Weapon. And with the Spikes spell on his club, the ranger/monk also has a +3 weapon (I think).
The bebelith is very weak against magic: no spell resistance and no energy resistances. The party may well assume it has generous helpings of both and not try to use magic against it, but if they do blast it, it'll probably go down pretty quick.
Max hit points is a good suggestion - I might go with that. I know it can hurt the party given the chance, I just fear it wouldn't survive long enough against the hail of arrows from the munchkin archer and magic missiles/fireballs from the wizard to get the chance.
Is there any way that Eerdik or anyone else can actually control the thing? I think it would be a lot more of a threat if someone could lure the party into someplace it's hiding, and/or be around to support it with buffs, healing, etc. If it's just wandering around in loose cannon mode, it will have to be quite lucky to threaten the party at all, I think.
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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(1/25/03 1:28:19 am)
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Re: the bebelith
no way it can be controlled...
it even hates to be here and if the dimensional anchor wasn't in place, it'd teleport the hell outta here...
it hates any living being it encounters, blaming them for being stuck on this plane...
so in short, it can't be controlled unless someone knows it's true name (in which case, you can control and command a demon), but knowing a demon's true name is next to impossible...
go with it as it is... if you want, go with the maxxing of the hitpoints, but that won't do it much good either i guess against your munchkin gang...
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Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(1/25/03 7:38:32 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: the bebelith
"it even hates to be here and if the dimensional anchor wasn't in place, it'd teleport the hell outta here..."
Perhaps, but not before it rampaged a little.
"...Spikes spell on his club, the ranger/monk also has a +3 weapon..."
No, spikes grants only a +2 enhancement bonus, and the bebilith has DR 30/+3, pretty much immune to all attacks of less than +3.
"The bebelith is very weak against magic: no spell resistance and no energy resistances..."
Not true. as a demon, it gets immunity to poison and electricity, and cold, fire, and acid resistance 20. Don't forget he also has the protective aura, so he is pretty much immune to summoned monsters and gains a likely +2 to saves against all PC's attacks. His saves are very good already at +12, +9, +9.
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DM Dan76
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(1/25/03 1:41:33 pm)
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Re: the bebelith
I was also thinking of making the bebelith more of a challange.
My group is just now at the earth bridge and we left off in the middle of a huge fight between the PC's and all the bridge forces. I even brought in the Grey Render to toughen up the battle.
I figured that instead of advancing the bebelith to make it tougher, I'd make sure the PC's were down on resourses before bringing it out into play. With the party low on spells the bebelith will be that much more of a challange!
Oh, and I also maxed out it's hit points as well.
We play again on monday and I hope to unlease the bebelith then. I'll have to see how it goes.
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Abelard
Still here? Wow.
(1/25/03 3:52:17 pm)
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Re: the bebelith
"No, spikes grants only a +2 enhancement bonus, and the bebilith has DR 30/+3, pretty much immune to all attacks of less than +3."
Ah, good. That makes a big difference!
"Not true. as a demon, it gets immunity to poison and electricity, and cold, fire, and acid resistance 20. Don't forget he also has the protective aura, so he is pretty much immune to summoned monsters and gains a likely +2 to saves against all PC's attacks. His saves are very good already at +12, +9, +9."
The way I understand it, the immunities and resistances are for tanar'ri, not all demons, and bebe boy is not a tanar’ri.
Still, you're right, those saves are pretty good, and the aura doesn't hurt. The group doesn't use summoned monsters though.
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Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(1/26/03 9:50:37 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: the bebelith
"The way I understand it, the immunities and resistances are for tanar'ri, not all demons, and bebe boy is not a tanar’ri."
Well, slap my ass and call me Sally. I never even noticed that point before. The retriever, bebilith, and quasit are all not powerful enough to be considered tanar'ri, I guess, though the dretch is. Maybe that will be a houserule for me. A demon is a demon is a demon. There is no tanar'ri. I don't know where that word came from. 
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The guy from Belgium
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(1/27/03 6:16:23 am)
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Re: the bebelith
if you use the handout found in Eedirik's room (the three pages depicting the portal, the bebilitjh and the notes) you'll see that it says:
Bebilith - Hunter of Tana'ri
which would mean that is it not considered a Tana'ri itself, but it is used by them to hunt down their mortal enemies (which would be Baatezu i think...)
so it doesn't have the Tana'ri special resistances, that is it's only weak point!
because if you compare it to the heavier demons, they all have CR 13-17 because of their SR and their resistances. If the Bebeilith had those too, it would also be CR 15 (because that is the only difference between it and the heavier demons, the rest is almost identical... also DR 30/+3 and stuff)
so i'd rule it does not have the resistances... give it an achilles heel or it will kick your party's butt (if used properly... webbing powerful opponents, poisoning them and thus draining their con, ruining their armor and stuff)
the bebilith is one tough cookie!
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ronin
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(1/27/03 11:02:36 am)
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Re: bebelith
One thing I found out about the bebelith when I used it against my party was how it's web is resistant to fire. IIRC it only has a 50% chance to actually catch fire and burn away.
You should have seen the fire elemental savant's face when he sent his fire elemental familiar up to burn out his fellow party members and it got stuck in the web as well! It was pretty cool.
It's other main ability is to shred armor like a can opener. Since none of your PCs wear magical plate it won't be as devastating but my group's paladin sure didn't like it when it happened to him.
I used it's web ability and then had it move in and attack those caught in it's web. I figured it should be able to move along it's own web as it wishes. Luckily for my group a couple PCs managed to not get ensnared and blasted the creature with magic before it could devour their friends. IIRC my group was around level 8 or so when they encountered the beast.
Maybe you could up the EL by adding additional creatures. I had it come along when my party was fighting off Ukemil and his lions, right at the tail end of that battle. It worked out well for me. Good luck with the battle and let us know how it turns out for your group.
ronin
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(1/27/03 12:10:32 pm)
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Re: the bebelith
Quote:
Well, slap my ass and call me Sally. I never even noticed that point before. The retriever, bebilith, and quasit are all not powerful enough to be considered tanar'ri, I guess, though the dretch is. Maybe that will be a houserule for me. A demon is a demon is a demon. There is no tanar'ri. I don't know where that word came from.
It's not a question of power, Infiniti2000, it's a question of typing and membership. Demons are a category that covers most of the Outsider inhabitants of the Abyss. Of those, there are several types of Demon that are also part of the "subtype" of "Tanar'ri". Not all of them...just some.
Tanar'ri have some things in common, most notably, the "Tanar'ri Qualities". Thus, anything that posesses the Tanar'ri Qualities is likely to be Tanar'ri, and those that do not posess these qualities aren't Tanar'ri, even though they still ARE Demons.
You'll notice the Bebilith also lacks the summoning and telepathy abilities...also trademark Tanar'ri Qualities.
For what it's worth, other sourcebooks have other Demons that are not actual Tanar'ri. The Shadow Demon, from the Book of Vile Darkness, is not IIRC. There's a definite reason for some things to be Tanar'ri and others to not...don't just arbitrarially abandon the distinction.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
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