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Kylearanon
Here for a while
(1/29/03 7:46:42 am)
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Wat´s equipment if he´s killed !
What happens to Wat´s equipment if he is killed by the players ?
What does happen to a ghosts possessions after its death anyway ? Cause by means of rejuvenation it is kind of reborn soon after the death. Is it naked then ?
Question actually is, if the players slay Wat and take his sword and after he has risen again. Does the sword somehow get back to Wat until he is truly dead or can he lose his stuff like any other creature ?
I ask because in certain movies you see ghosts rise again and again and they always wear the stuff they had worn when they died ...
Kyle
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Grumgarr
Here for a while
(1/29/03 8:01:26 am)
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Re: Wat´s equipment if he´s killed !
AFAIK his sword is the only item he can 'lose'.
It's a Ghost Touch longsword, so exists on the ethereal and material planes simultaneously - it can be moved in either.
He doesn't actually have any other material possessions, and couldn't manipulate them if he did.
So, if the PCs 'kill' Wat and take his sword, he no longer has a sword, and can't attack material creatures except using his disruptive touch attack, once he manifests.
If this attack deals hp damage (I don't recall), he could still use it to Death Attack.
When he rejuvenates he'll look just like he did last time, except he'll have no sword (or maybe he'll have a ghostly - and ineffectual - sword if that suits your image of him better).
Grumgarr
Edited by: Grumgarr at: 1/29/03 8:03:44 am
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Tristan DArque
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(1/29/03 8:08:36 am)
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Re: Wat´s equipment / I suck a big bitter lemon
Wat's longsword is ghost touch, so I would rule it remains on the material plane if he's killed, and can thus be recovered by the PCs. If Wat comes back, I guess he'll be limited to using his incorporeal touch. I guess he can still make a death attack with that, though [edit: yes, he can, it deals 1d4 ordinary damage] - in fact, it would be quite cool, manifesting and then reaching into the chest of the target PC to grab his/her heart and encase it in his icy chill... especially if they thought they'd killed him already...
I completely messed up the encounter with Wat in so many ways. It was the end of a session (the last one we had, in fact) and I was very tired, but I managed (in the course of about 5 minutes) to make all the following errors:
1. Treated the ability drain from Wat's horrific appearance as ability damage, not drain. ('excuse': the only player who failed her save looked horrified - appropriately enough, I suppose - when I told her she had lost a bunch of ability points, and only improved slightly when I told her it was only temporary. But I didn't say that because I felt sorry for her, I said it because I got it wrong...)
2. Forgot Wat's Turn Resistance. This was the major error, because it allowed a paladin who should never have had even a shot at turning him to nix him with a good roll. I persisted in this error despite my one experienced player saying to me, "really? ghosts used to be really hard to turn in 2e...". My reaction: explanation of the fact that 'ghost' was now a template, and that therefore sometimes they had less hit dice. Completely escaped my attention that in big bold letters on my notes it said 'TURNS AS 10HD'.
3. Compounded error 2. above by having Wat not flee to the ethereal plane once turned, thereby allowing the party to destroy him. This was just unbelievably stupid of me, but I take some solace in the fact that in the course of the fight the party had already accidentally set fire to the inn. Thus, if I had got it right, Wat had fled to the ethereal, and the party had got out of the burning building, he would ultimately have been destroyed anyway.
I figured that basically I had treated Wat as some sort of 'lesser ghost' (ie, without turn resistance and with a reduced-effect horrific appearance), so I halved his CR for XP purposes.
Edited by: Tristan DArque at: 1/29/03 8:13:34 am
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(1/29/03 8:14:19 am)
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Re: Wat´s equipment / I suck a big bitter lemon
Don't be too hard on yourself, Tristan DArque...Wat may not have been used to his full potential, but he's not a major character, and the good guys are *supposed* to win.
You'll have plenty of ways to terrify them in the near future.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Tristan DArque
Here for a while
(1/29/03 8:18:07 am)
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Re: Wat´s equipment / I suck a big bitter lemon
Quote:
You'll have plenty of ways to terrify them in the near future.
Oh yes... the session ended just after that, with the PCs' arrival at Lareth's house. 
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Kylearanon
Here for a while
(1/29/03 8:21:15 am)
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Re: Wat´s equipment / I suck a big bitter lemon
Thanks guys, that´ll do.
Few other things now on my mind, though.
The difference between ability drain and damage is that drain is permanent and damage is temp, right ?
In the passage about Wat´s tactics it is said that after his death attack he ATTACKS with his horrific appearance. How can that be ? I thought it would work automatically for any being that sees him manifested. Or is it an action for him to use this ability ?
And I know about the 10HD thingy, thanks anyway. A few days ago I was really worried about that, too, cause I thought, the two clerics in my group would make short work of Wat. But then I found the Turn Resistance, hehe.
Kyle
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Grumgarr
Here for a while
(1/29/03 8:27:36 am)
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Re: Wat´s equipment / I suck a big bitter lemon
Quote:
The difference between ability drain and damage is that drain is permanent and damage is temp, right ?
Yes.
Quote:
In the passage about Wat´s tactics it is said that after his death attack he ATTACKS with his horrific appearance. How can that be ? I thought it would work automatically for any being that sees him manifested. Or is it an action for him to use this ability ?
Once he manifests, anyone who sees him and is within the range of his horrific appearance is affected, so yeah, it works like a gaze attack. He can attack in the same round using his disruptive touch (or any other nasty abilities he has, if any)...plus that Death Attack thing is naaaasty, considering he can lurk on the ethereal plane until he's ready to use it, then manifest and BWAAAAA-HA-HAAAA-HAAAARRRR!!!
Sorry, got carried away
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ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(1/29/03 9:47:25 am)
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Re: Wat´s equipment / I suck a big bitter lemon
Quote:
I completely messed up the encounter with Wat in so many ways.
Take solace in the fact that none of that is worse than me accidentally allowing Chat to be slept. I didn't even realize it until I was writing up the session summary the next day.
I hung my head in shame.
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justind dm
Here for a while
(1/29/03 9:55:04 am)
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Re: Wat´s equipment / I suck a big bitter lemon
I never noticed before that this ability damage was permanent (never had an ecounter with a ghost in it). 1d4 permanent ability dran to 3 different abilities just by use of a gaze...sweet mother....
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 Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(1/29/03 10:48:28 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Wat´s equipment / I suck a big bitter lemon
Just remember that Canoness Y'Dey can cure the ability damage, but it will be 500gp per ability score (that's 1500gp per PC that was affected by Wat's horrific appearance). My party had to pay 3500gp, good thing they found the ring in the boat.
One other point on the equipment. This is how I believe ghostly equipment is meant to be handled, though YMMV, and I may indeed by wrong.  If Wat is somehow killed on the ethereal plane, his sword remains there. If he is killed while manifested, his sword stays in the material plane. His equipment that he was able to keep should actually be present on the material plane. I put it under the bar in a box. If a PC takes it, then the ghost no longer has it. I seem to remember some masterwork studded leather armor or something.
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Kenmis
Here for a while
(1/29/03 3:21:34 pm)
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Wat's Stuff
Yeah, from what i understood, if you kill a ghost in the material plane he takes all his stuff back with him and re-appears with it again, unless you actualy take it from where it is stored on the material.
So my players killed Wat and then tore the bar appart looking for his body. I ruled it was underneith the floorboards. They took his stuff and buried his body, giving it rites and things like that, hoping that would allow him to be free of this world.
Since they didn't burn down the actual in, Wat came back of course. But they haven't been back to Nulb to know that.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Here for a while
(1/29/03 5:26:01 pm)
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sword...
So do people think the longsword should drop from Wat's hand after he is killed (assuming manifestation on the material plane) or should the PCs have to find the body?
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Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(1/30/03 7:44:03 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: sword...
It should drop from his hand. The ghost can take the ghost touch weapon with him, even into the ethereal plane. When he manifests he brings it back. I'm not even sure there should be a body. I decided that some ghouls came by and ate it. The Inn keeps Wat there, not his body.
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ZansForCans
Here for a while
(2/3/03 12:50:52 pm)
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Death Attack sans weapon?
Quote:
If Wat comes back, I guess he'll be limited to using his incorporeal touch. I guess he can still make a death attack with that, though [edit: yes, he can, it deals 1d4 ordinary damage] - in fact, it would be quite cool, manifesting and then reaching into the chest of the target PC to grab his/her heart and encase it in his icy chill...
Even though the touch does physical damage, the beginning of the SA section of the ghost template says that those SAs needing 'physical contact' don't work. The touch attack says 'incorporeal attack'. Does incorporeal necessarily mean not physical? Thoughts?
I'm torn on this one, especially since the description you give would be pretty dang cool to use
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Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(2/3/03 1:32:30 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Death Attack sans weapon?
Technically, according to the death attack description, the assassin needs a melee weapon. I'm not sure if the ghost's hand can be considered a melee weapon, but he would not be effective if he couldn't do a death attack. If you do consider the touch attack a melee weapon for these purposes, then it should still work. The part about physical contact was referring to non-ghost touch weapons and touch based spells like shocking grasp.
In the end, I'd rule it in favor of the ghost. Yes, he can perform a death attack with his touch. Perhaps we should add this to the rules thread.
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Tristan DArque
Here for a while
(2/3/03 1:43:05 pm)
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Re: Death Attack sans weapon?
The ghost template says that when you become a ghost, your attacks which rely on physical contact don't work on non-ethereal targets. Meaning that while the live Wat could have punched someone, the ghost Wat can't (monks that become ghosts get a tough deal... guess they need some ghost touch gauntlets). Of course, the live Wat couldn't have made a death attack with his punch anyway.
But when you become a ghost, you gain a corrupting touch attack which does affect non-ethereal targets (doing 1d4 damage). The description of death attacks says, when you make a sneak attack with a melee weapon that does damage, after 3 rounds of study, you can kill or paralyse. Obstacle: description says 'melee weapon', but I think that's just over-precise, natural weapons must work too (at least, if that has to be a house rule, I've just added it to my campaign).
I would definitely rule it does work.
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madfox
Still here? Wow.
(2/4/03 12:40:43 am)
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Re: Equipment of Ghosts
My understanding on the equipment of ghosts, is that it is not real, not even the ghost touch sword. It is a copy of the equipment that is located at the material corpse of the ghost. So if the PCs want the equipment of Wat -including the ghost touch sword- they will have to find his corpse or whereever the real sword is located..
Quote from SRD: The original material items remain behind, just as the ghost’s physical remains do. If another creature seizes the original, the ethereal copy fades away. This invariably angers the ghost, who stops at nothing to return the item to its original resting place.
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ZansForCans
Here for a while
(2/4/03 10:35:27 am)
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Re: Equipment of Ghosts
Quote:
My understanding on the equipment of ghosts, is that it is not real, not even the ghost touch sword.
My reading of the ghost touch is that GT weapons and armor are that they are sort of in both planes at once (I thought I read this specifically somewhere, but can't find the reference, sorry). If one's just lying around on the Material plane for example, an incorporeal creature can just pick it up and use it (including a manifesting ghost).
If that's the case, there could be only one 'copy' of Wat's sword, but it makes me wonder what happens to it when he un-manifests. Does it disappear with him? If so, why? And when he is destroyed, should it drop on the Material plane? If so, why?
Heh... maybe your way is easier 
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justind dm
Here for a while
(2/4/03 10:52:16 am)
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Re: Equipment of Ghosts
Interesting question. If the GT sword exists on both planes at the same time, and if there is indeed only the one copy, then anyone on either plane could operate it and it would reflect those changes on the other plane. Essentially, you have Wat attacked by another incorpreal being (who your players don't see) on the other plane, it seizes the GT sword and you would see it move with the other form (in other words, it would be visible to the players, even if the other incorpreal being was not). That would defeat the use as far as Wat's death attack is concerned because if the sword exists on this plane (and is not incorpreal) than the PC's will see it, thus discerning Wat's location.
However, if the GT is an incorpreal weapon that can become corpreal at will, then it would work fine. If Wat is destoryed it would go incorpreal and fade back into his remains with the rest of him, but not necessarily appear with his remains.
If it is a corpreal weapon that can become incorpreal, it could be with his remains but he is able to take it with him when he manifiests. If destroyed, I would rule that the sword becomes corpreal again and falls to the ground.
I'm sorry, I'm just trying to understand this...
Edited by: justind dm at: 2/4/03 10:58:45 am
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Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(2/4/03 11:06:25 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Equipment of Ghosts
SRD: "Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder."
The ghost can grab the weapon from only the material plane. Whichever plane the ghost is on at the moment is where the actual weapon is located. When he manifests, the weapon manifests with him on the material plane. If he attacks something that is corporeal (like a PC) it counts as corporeal (not needing a 50% miss chance like with a regular +1 magical weapon). If he attacks something that is incoporeal (like a harrier spell) it counts as incorporeal. When he fades away to the ethereal plane, so does the weapon, because it is in his possession. The weapon does not allow the ghost (or a PC) to attack through the planes, so Wat cannot attack with it prior to manifesting. However, it still more than likely gains surprise with his death attack, because the surprise round (partial action) occurs after manifesting.
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justind dm
Here for a while
(2/4/03 11:11:35 am)
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Re: Equipment of Ghosts
Thanks Infiniti2000
So when Wat is destroyed the GT sword should fade with him, and be with his earthly remains?
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