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Xel565
Looking around
(2/6/03 6:02 pm)
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Improved trip and Flurry of Blows
Is it possible to use flurry of blows and improved trip to make an extra attack against a successfully tripped opponent. Ex: Tac uses flurry of blows to get 3 attacks and also uses improved trip. The first attack succeeds so he makes 3 attacks to the prone defender. Is this possible?
Xel
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Abelard
Still here? Wow.
(2/6/03 6:12 pm)
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Re: Improved trip and Flurry of Blows
Yes.
(Tac's first attack is a Trip attempt, which succeeds. That triggers Improved Trip and he gets another attack immediately. He still has two attacks coming before he is done.)
The extra -2 attack penalty for flurry of blows will also apply to the bonus attack provided by Improved Trip, of course. This would be true for any "all attacks for the round are X" condition - Power Attack, Expertise, etc.
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Xel565
Looking around
(2/6/03 6:13 pm)
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Re: Improved trip and Flurry of Blows
Wow thats a powerful combo.  I'm playing monks from now on.
Xel
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CrossNightwalker
Here for a while
(2/6/03 6:19 pm)
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Re: Improved trip and Flurry of Blows
Absolutely, and it's one of the reason monks are so nasty. The following sequesnce is completely legal, assuming an unarmed monk with a BAB of +4 (atacks at +4/+1):
Monk: I'm using Flurry of blows and a full attack action.
(Attack1): I attempt to trip at +2 (+4 for BAB, -2 for Flurry). *rolls appropriate checks, succeeds*.
(Attack1A): Improved trip kicks in, so I take an attack, at +6 (+2 as original attack, +4 for my opponent being prone.)
(Attack2): I continue to attack, next at +6 (Extra attack granted by flurry, opponent still prone).
(Attack3): I finish my attack, finally at +3 (+1 for BAB, -2 for flurry, +4 for prone).
During this sequence, if your trip failed on Attack1, you could try again on any of the subsequent attacks...or take any attack action you like. (Grapple, for example)
Fun, isn't it?
-Cross
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Hammerhead
Looking around
(2/6/03 7:09 pm)
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It's not too bad
Actually, try a few rogue levels on their and watch the damage add up, especially when Stunning Blow is used.
Still, its not too impressive compared to what some characters can do in melee combat, like Whirlwind-Great Cleaves or a Ranger1/Rogue X with a Ring of Blinking.
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Abelard
Still here? Wow.
(2/7/03 11:16 am)
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Re: It's not too bad
"Actually, try a few rogue levels on their and watch the damage add up, especially when Stunning Blow is used."
How so? You can't sneak attack someone just because they are prone. And normally (barring Haste), since Stunning Blow is a standard action, you won't get to attack the stunned target again until your next turn, at which point the target will no longer be stunned.
Remember too that if your trip attempt fails, the opponent can immediately try to "counter trip" you. Improved Trip doesn't help avoid that.
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compnerdansel
Looking around
(2/7/03 12:09 pm)
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Add a monks belt and stun
No, heres what you do. Get yourself a monks belt (or hasted somehow), now during the partial round of the haste, make a trip attack at your full attack bonus, if it fails hey you can try again during your standard. If it suceeds, make your free attack roll at full attack bonus and throw a stun in. (Ki straps really help here) If all goes well, during the full attack you flurry on his ass. The -2 to each strike is more than made up by the +4 for prone, +2 for stun, and he looses his dex to AC. (this is where sneak attacking monks dish out the damage) On top of it all your buddies get the same bonuses to pound on his ass for a round, he looses his action so he doesnt even get to stand up on his turn, and when it rolls around to your turn again, he's still prone and all you have to do is stun again, assuming he is still alive. THAT is why I play monks ;-)
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Blackthorne
Here for a while
(2/7/03 1:14 pm)
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*
Yeah, but Stunning Attack is still a standard action.
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thegreatbuddha11
Here for a while
(2/8/03 3:19 pm)
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Re: *
Stunning Attack is not a standard action. It is a special melee attack. It can be done any time a monk can use a normal melee attack, including AoOs.
A Monk5/Rogue3 uses flurry of blows and improved trip. Improved Trip grants him an extra attack if successful, which goes towards a stunning attack. His opponent is now prone, dexless, and doesn't get to take an action on his following round. The monk still has 2 attacks left over, both of which gain +2d6 damage for being sneak attacks. The following round, the monk can use a full-attack action to make 3 more attacks against the prone opponent, one of which can be a stunning attack. That's an extra 6d6 damage.
It gets really bad if the monk has Expert Tactician and is [i]hasted[/i]. He gains 4 additional attacks against his opponent over the course of 2 rounds, all of which are sneak attacks, for an additional 8d6 damage. In 2 rounds, assuming no bonuses from strength, the monk will dish out 10d8+18d6 damage, for an average of 108 points of damage. the monk example above could do this for a total of 5 rounds 
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Hammerhead
Looking around
(2/9/03 8:06 am)
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Re: *
Told you it was effective.
Another advantage of the Rogue levels is Uncanny Dodge, since being flat-footed hoses a Monk's AC.
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 Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(2/9/03 10:12 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: *
"Stunning Attack is not a standard action. It is a special melee attack. It can be done any time a monk can use a normal melee attack, including AoOs."
No, stunning attack (and quivering palm) are both standard actions. Per the SRD:Quote:
Use supernatural ability [Standard][AoO: No]
Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
The description for stunning attack does not contain the text to otherwise define the ability as specifically not a standard action.Quote:
Stunning Attack: The monk can use this ability once per round, but no more than once per level per day. The monk must declare she is using a stun attack before making the attack roll (thus, a missed attack roll ruins the attempt). A foe struck by the monk is forced to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + one-half the monk's level + Wisdom modifier). In addition to receiving normal damage, If the saving throw fails, the opponent is stunned for 1 round. The stunning attack is a supernatural ability.
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Blackthorne
Here for a while
(2/9/03 10:13 am)
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Nah...
...Stunning Blow is a Supernatural Ability. Thus, it takes a standard action to use (DMG, Chapter 3), unless the text for Stunning Blow says otherwise (which it doesn´t).
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Blackthorne
Here for a while
(2/9/03 10:14 am)
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*
 Cheater!
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Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(2/9/03 12:10 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Cheater
Sorry about stealing your thunder there, Blackthorne. 
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Hammerhead
Looking around
(2/9/03 1:13 pm)
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Re: Cheater
Au contraire
According to WotC's FAQ on the PHB, a Supernatural Ability that changes the way an ordinary ability works is treated, as what type of action it uses, as the action it modifies.
Now, on page 39, Column 2 of the PHB, under Stunning Attack it states that "A monk has the ability to stun a creature damaged by her unarmed attacks."
Thus, Stunning Attack is read, not as a separate unarmed attack, but an addition to a Monk's unarmed attack, i.e. a change. This means that the SA is not a standard action, but instead can be used as part of an attack.
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Infiniti2000
Here to stay
(2/9/03 3:06 pm)
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ezSupporter
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To Stun or Not to Stun
Well, also according to the FAQ (12/10/02), pg. 33, "...nor can you use a spell-like ability or a supernatural ability as an attack of opportunity." This implies the stunning attack does not merely replace or change the way an ordinary unarmed attack works. The stunning attack is a special ability of the monk. This is also borne out by the fact that a monk can only monk one stunning attack per round. If it just changed the attack, there would be no reason to impose this otherwise arbitrary limit.
IMO, the rules (and the FAQ) clearly indicate that it is a standard action. The part of the FAQ you refer to actually is relative to the supernatural speed of the monk and not directly related to attacks.
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thegreatbuddha11
Here for a while
(2/13/03 9:05 pm)
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Re: To Stun or Not to Stun
[quote]This is also borne out by the fact that a monk can only monk one stunning attack per round. If it just changed the attack, there would be no reason to impose this otherwise arbitrary limit.[/quote]
If stunning attack was a standard action, you could only perform one per round anyway (barring [i]haste[/i]), so that clarification wouldn't be needed.
If you are going with the thought that supernatural abilities can't be used as AoOs, that's completely fine with me. it just means that vampires can't drain levels when they make an AoO. Since I'm a player right now (not in the RttoEE module), I can live with that
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/13/03 9:21 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: To Stun or Not to Stun
"If you are going with the thought that supernatural abilities can't be used as AoOs, that's completely fine with me. it just means that vampires can't drain levels when they make an AoO. Since I'm a player right now (not in the RttoEE module), I can live with that"
Actually, that point is also in the FAQ, last question on page 33. Alas, they suggest that energy drain (as an ongoing or automatic effect) can be applied as an AoO. I think the stipulation is ongoing or automatic. Stunning is neither and needs to be specified (let's assume that means specifying takes a free action) before applying it. You cannot generally take free actions during an AoO.
However, all that said, my opinion is starting to waver...particularly because I like monks, not necessarily because I am convinced.
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Taxman66
Here for a while
(2/14/03 5:37 am)
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Re: To Stun or Not to Stun
I think the biggest headache is it (Monk stunning attack) being supernatural to begin with. In many ways this makes this ability actually worse than the Stunning Fist feat which is 'extraordinary' and is clearly used as one attack.
Change the monk ability to extraordinary and you solve this problem; as a side note you also solve the problem of it not working in an anti-magic field.
I hope they fix the Monk's stunning attack for 3.5e
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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