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Author
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Comment
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Boden Blagden
Here for a while
(2/13/03 6:54 am)
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The elemental swords?
Is there any significance to the elemental swords? Will the party need them later on in the campaign. My party has both the earth sword and the air sword. I was just wondering if it would be a mistake to sell one of them. I don't remember reading anything about them being needed to continue on later in the game or anything like that, but I could be wrong.
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smetzger
Here for a while
(2/13/03 6:58 am)
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Elemental Swords
The only thing I can remember is that they cease to be magical when the appropriate altar is destroyed.
Could be interesting if they sell the sword before this happens.
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Kenmis
Here for a while
(2/13/03 8:52 am)
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Sword options
Yes, it's certainly possible to sell them. The swords themselves are not evil in any way. However, if the temple they are connecting to is destroyed, the revert to a regular masterwork sword. It could be funny to sell it and then have a very angry fighter chase the players down pissed as hell because they sold him a sword that stopped working 2 weeks later. 
Some partys (including mine) are re-dedicating the inert swords to a new temple (spending some XP and gold to do so). This is an interesting option too.
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Taxman66
Here for a while
(2/13/03 11:14 am)
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Re: Sword options
I would poke around, there are several threads regarding the 'elemental swords'. I don't feel like restating/rehashing the arguements or spending the time finding the particular threads in question. But, I do recomend you look them up there are several good points that are made.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(2/13/03 2:53 pm)
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Re: Sword options
I just had a new thought...at least, I think it's new. I don't recall anyone else suggesting this.
What's everyone's opinion on the idea that an Elemental Sword can be USED to destroy it's Elemental Altar? Instead of pounding away against hardness for a half an hour, wielding an Elem sword and stabbing directly into the Elem altar destroys both instantly!
Don't know the game value of it, but it certainly makes for good story and "special effect".
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Tristan DArque
Here for a while
(2/13/03 3:29 pm)
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Re: Sword options
Ooh, I like that. Nice.
Of course, it would have to create a big bang...
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benhamtroll
Here to stay
(2/13/03 3:32 pm)
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Re: Sword options
5d6 elemental damage, appropriate to the temple, REF for 1/2?
There's no business like gnoll business |
 Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/13/03 3:48 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Sword options
Or, you need to use the opposing elemental sword to destroy a particular altar. Use the water sword to destroy the fire altar, etc. Then, an explosion is much more believable. You can also use paraelemental damage, whereby you need protection from both elements to avoid all the damage. The 5d6 save for 1/2 is okay.
It's most obvious to have water quench fire and vice versa, but there are cool paraelemental planes, like magma (fire/earth), ice (air/water), etc. If you are a real bastage like Thrommel , you can require a will save or be teleported to that paraelemental plane during the explosion (but taking no damage from it).
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benhamtroll
Here to stay
(2/13/03 3:57 pm)
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Re: Sword options
The opposite swords idea is cool, but the problem comes up of only being able to destroy two altars. After you kill the water altar with the fire sword, the water sword would be powerless and would not serve to kill the fire altar.
There's no business like gnoll business |
Killiak 
Here for a while
(2/13/03 7:14 pm)
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Re: Sword options
Indeed, but that makes for an interesting dilemma, now doesn't it?
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/13/03 9:28 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Sword options
Good point, benhamtroll. But, I wouldn't make it a requirement to destroy the altar, just the easiest way. It also presents a really interesting plot element for the temples themselves. Imagine what Kelashein would be thinking if she knew that the Sword of Water would automatically destroy the Fire Temple altar? Now, it becomes very important for the Fire Temple to know where the Sword of Water is and who has it. Will Tessimon use the Sword of Fire to destroy the Water Temple? Can she just get another sword in a month?
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Entropius
Looking around
(2/14/03 12:27 am)
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Interesting possibilities for intra-CRM strife...
Yes, the players could use the swords to destroy the altars, but 1) they can destroy them anyway, given enough time, and 2) the players don't gain that much from destroying the altars as the module is written. (I can certainly see some possibilities, though... more on that later.)
The PC's will probably wind up killing many of the inhabitants of a temple and capturing the altar room before getting a chance to destroy the altar itself. On the other hand, the temples would like nothing better than to launch a hit-and-run raid on another temple (as the Water Temple's raid detailed in the module).
Using this alternate property of the swords, it would make sense to replace the scroll of disintegrate with the sword of water in the Water Temple's raid. Of course, the Water Temple would have to recover the thing first, but a simple [i]locate object[/i] would help find it. Dealing with the ape might be harder for the already-strained Water Temple, however.
About giving the party an incentive to destroy the altars: Someone on another thread suggested changes that could happen to the ToAC as the day of reckoning gets closer: glowing purple fire at the top of the Black Spike and churning water in the Stalagos.
This got me thinking: what about one effect keyed to each element that ends once the appropriate altar is destroyed? These effects would gradually build while the party is in the CRM. I'm mostly brainstorming here, since it's 2 AM and I'm a bit sleep-deprived.
Water: The earlier suggestion in regard to the Stalagos is a good one here... at a certain point the water would be almost unnavigable, making it difficult to reach the Water Door. A chance of acid rain over all outdoor areas of the ToAC (mainly the bridges) might also be appropriate.
Fire: Since the ToAC is built in a volcano, random minor eruptions might be fitting. At first this would render passage into the Inner Fane difficult, which wouldn't have that large of an effect on the PC's (since they will likely have smashed the altar by the time they get there). Larger eruptions might scatter magma all the way out to the bridges (which wouldn't hinder the temple much; the Black Spike is immune, and the Outer Fane is protected by terrain... this leaves only the lightning towers unprotected). The Dark Wights would also be in some trouble... I suppose they could hide near the door, or develop fire resistance...
Air: High wind is the obvious choice, intensifying gradually until characters crossing the bridges suffer ill effects from the winds. This would also ground the spider eaters, but since they're mostly there for flying defense... Lightning strikes would also be an interesting effect, growing in intensity and frequency as time passes.
Earth: Random minor cave-ins/tremors in the CRM might be appropriate.
Again, I'm just brainstorming here, so this all is not well-formed yet in my head. I think it'd increase the sense of urgency on the PC's to have intensifying effects like this. I was a RttToEE player before I became a DM; we cleared out maybe 30% of the CRM when our DM got tired and quit... probably due to the fact that he didn't play the NPC's very intelligently. Most of them just appeared as presented and fought until their deaths. And he wondered why we were breezing through the CRM without much of a challenge  Anyway, our party felt no time pressure at all; we made frequent trips all the way back to Verbobonc. Some sort of overt manifestation of the growing power of the EEE and Tharizdun would help the tension in the module; if the ToAC [i]is[/i] the EEE, as some have suggested, this is especially appropriate.
Also, Tharizdun (as I read it) represents annihilation... of everything. Surely, if he got free, he would destroy himself along with the rest of the world; his goal is to put things out of existence. (The Latin root of "annihilate" is the same as in "nihilist"...) The Doomdreamers are in the same boat; as the text indicates, they realize that the release of Tharizdun will result in their deaths, and they look forward to such a thing.
In light of this, it seems somehow appropriate for the ToAC to manifest forces that are increasingly self-destructive as the plan progresses. Without the PC's intervention, the ToAC would eventually destroy itself in torrential rainstorms and tornadoes, with earthquakes and eruptions from the volcano. The occupants of the CRM would be the first to die (unwillingly), since they're the least protected... but, as someone else pointed out, death merely channels more power to Tharizdun. Most of the inhabitants of the OF don't want to die, but the Doomdreamers don't care, leaving them to their own devices to escape. Eventually even the nigh-indestructible Black Spike would be destroyed, sinking into the volcano; the doomdreamers there would probably take the Tourbillion to the Restored Temple as the end approached, to shepherd the final rebirth of Tharizdun.
Of course, the whole point of the module is for this stuff to [b]not[/b] happen; that's what the PC's are for. To me, there's something appealing about PC's (if they don't manage to get the altars down) racing against the elements to get through the Fanes to discover what they need to stop the doomdreamers. (Of course, if the PC's don't mess around, there won't be much of a problem; if they dawdle around, they may be forced to backtrack and find all the swords.)
This sort of thing would also fit into the "alternate climax" presented in the book, where the PC's go to the Recovered Temple before the Inner Fane, and the final battle takes place in the 8th and 9th floors of the Spike instead of in the Fire Node. PC's entering a ToAC in the late stages of self-annihilation, trying to stop the Doomdreamers (the final ritual could take place in the Tabernacle instead of the Restored Temple) from finally freeing Tharizdun, could make for a most exciting climax. I can just see a group of PC's interrupting the ritual and smashing the Orb of Oblivion, only to find themselves unable to escape the Spike (can't teleport through it) and dying heroically after saving the world. Some players might hate that, but I'd love to lose a 14th-15th level character like that. :P
This is all rambling, of course, and many of these ideas are undoubtedly very bad ones... but the idea of the elements gradually building in the ToEE (=EEE) as Tharizdun's return approaches just seems ... nifty. Of course, it would require quite a bit of writing and re-writing to implement (and the module is complex enough already)... making the altars tougher to destroy without the swords would be almost mandatory. Possibly they could release both an area dispel (to strip protections) and an attack spell keyed to their element whenever struck? SR 25?
I dunno. Enough rambling for tonight.
-Entropius
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/14/03 7:38 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Interesting possibilities for intra-CRM strife...
Great post, Entropius.
I would take it one step further (more complicated but I like my MotP) and include all four elements (air, earth, fire, water) and all four paraelements (magma-fire/earth, ice-water/air, ooze-earth/water, smoke-fire/air). The only problem I see with this is with magma and the like, the party will get really worried that the volcano is suddenly active. Indeed, the entire CRM and many inhabitants of the OF will feel similarly. Don't you think the CRM will be summarily abandoned? Maybe if you don't play it up too much, the inhabitants will just feel like they are in California. 
When an altar is destroyed, not only do the effects from that element stop, but also the effects from the two paraelements it touches stop. After two destroyed altars, you only have two elements and maybe one paraelement. These are likely to be fire and water (no paraelement, though you could make steam, normally a quasielement water/positive energy I think) or fire and air (and smoke). Likewise, with earth/air you could introduce dust (normally a quasielement earth/negative energy I think).
"The Doomdreamers are in the same boat; as the text indicates, they realize that the release of Tharizdun will result in their deaths, and they look forward to such a thing."
I just wanted to add in my 2cp on this topic. The doomdreamers don't see it as death. Death is cheap, ordinary, and very...mortal. The doomdreamers view oblivion is something more...immortal. It is far from cheap, in fact, the cost of all existence. They will be with Big T for all time in unexistence, in oblivion. This might seem like a minor point, but to me it would really drive home their motivation to the players when they get a chance to talk to a doomdreamer (either before a battle or while in prison).
Player: Don't you realize you are bringing about your own death?
Doomdreamer: Death? Death?! I don't care about dying! It is not death I look forward to, but cold, heartless oblivion! I look forward to basking in the icy purplish glow of glorious Tharizdun for eternity! In his unforgiving embrace I shall never die! Never! It is only foolish mortals like yourselves who persist in this beautiful struggle with great violence, giving additional power to the Dark Oppressor, who shall feel death in the end! Useless, worm-feeding death! No! You shall never be able to reap the wondrous rewards of total annihilation!
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Entropius
Looking around
(2/14/03 8:29 am)
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Doomdreamers, California, etc
[quote] The doomdreamers don't see it as death. Death is cheap, ordinary, and very...mortal. The doomdreamers view oblivion is something more...immortal. It is far from cheap, in fact, the cost of all existence. They will be with Big T for all time in unexistence, in oblivion. This might seem like a minor point, but to me it would really drive home their motivation to the players when they get a chance to talk to a doomdreamer (either before a battle or while in prison).
Player: Don't you realize you are bringing about your own death?
Doomdreamer: Death? Death?! I don't care about dying! It is not death I look forward to, but cold, heartless oblivion! I look forward to basking in the icy purplish glow of glorious Tharizdun for eternity! In his unforgiving embrace I shall never die! Never! It is only foolish mortals like yourselves who persist in this beautiful struggle with great violence, giving additional power to the Dark Oppressor, who shall feel death in the end! Useless, worm- feeding death! No! You shall never be able to reap the wondrous rewards of total annihilation! [/quote]
You're absolutely right ... it isn't death that the DD's revel in, it's oblivion. The "icy purplish glow" line is excellent... my players are already scared witless (and something else -less) by anything purple, and they haven't even been past the top of the Obelisk yet.
Incidentally, if the PC's wait around enough that they think the volcano is about to erupt (and, since the progression is a judgment call by the DM, a party that just has a tough time in the CRM wouldn't get as many fireworks as one that wasted time), then it's their own dang fault. They can either send a flyer up to take a look-see, or they can brave it anyway with multiple [i]protection from fire[/i] spells, or they can break out the divinations and find out about the Recovered Temple.
I don't envision the "this place is falling apart" effects coming in until right at the end, possibly by the time the PC's are 10th-11th level [b]and[/b] have wasted a significant amount of time somehow. Of course, once they get close to clearing the Outer Fane, some significant amount of fireworks are in order anyway... but nothing that they can't handle. (Or, rather, if they can't handle it, the two half-dragon half-tyrannosaurs will turn them into monster chew-toys). If the party does find themselves unable to enter the Inner Fane, they've still got Hedrack's journal (hopefully) and can scry and divine their way to the Recovered Temple.
About the para-elements: what would be their effects?
-Entropius
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/14/03 8:51 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Doomdreamers, California, etc
"About the para-elements: what would be their effects?"
Similar to the others you described.
Magma: as you describe for Fire.
Fire: Jets of flame randomly burst through cracks in walls, in the floor, or along the ceilings. Random rocks or objects become very hot to the touch (as with heat metal, but affecting anything).
Ice: The stalagos freezes over in summer, only to unfreeze in the wake of boiling magma, to refreeze the next day as each element/paralement strives to overthrow the others. The stalagos will be like a battleground for each element, being the threshold from the CRM to the OF. The threshold from the OF to the IF I see as the eye in the hurricane.
Ooze: Mud flows randomly through cracks in the walls, or forms in passages, creating a quicksand-like effect. More ooze-monsters start appearing. The bottom of the Stalagos becomes pure muck. Any character in heavy armor falling into the water is bad shape indeed.
Smoke: Whole passages and rooms are filled with toxic or just hot smoke. Smoke eminates from the towers and all over the outside of the OF and from many places in the CRM. You could treat this as obscuring mist at first, gradually transforming into acid fog, or a "heat" fog, doing heat/fire damage instead of acid.
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CrossNightwalker
Here for a while
(2/14/03 1:58 pm)
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Re: Doomdreamers, California, etc
To build on what Entropius has suggested, regarding the timeline of when these effects are to occur: It's difficult to nail down an exact timeline and growth pattern of these effects. Different groups, different speeds and all that. I wonder, then, if the CRM weirdnesses should be triggered by an individual event? Like, say, breaking an altar?
Hear me out for a minute....
Picture the alters as capstones. They channel the elemental powers that each templae is associated with. In addition, they grant specific powers to certain items. If the channeling item (altar) is destroyed, what happens to all that energy? Why, it starts to seep out, uncontrollably (which is yet another reason for the Doomdreamers to whack the temples when they're going to release Big T....we'd like all that energy to run completely wild, thanks.).
You already get a taste of this sort of effect when breaking the Earth altar (and forgive me if the other altars have similar effects built in...I've been concentrating on the Earth temple of late). Room caves in, rocks falling down, etc, etc. Expand on that. Once an altar is broken, every 1d8 days sees another elemental manifestation. Break two, and they get faster, until every couple (1d2) days is seeing the CRM beginning to self destruct. By now, the PCs are attacking the Outer Fane...but finding a safe hidey hole will be a serious problem (never know when that wall is going to melt into a stream of magma....)
The first problem I see with the above is that the party has no incentive to destroy the altars, and every reason NOT to. I like the idea of the crushing the evil artifacts...it'd be a shame to lose that.
Thoughts?
-Cross
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