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Caedrel
Here for a while
(2/20/03 4:42 pm)
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More errata
Hi folks,

I was going over Tessimon’s stats in detail (long story – not relevant for reporting the errata) and found something that I can’t see as being previously reported. It looks to me like her skills don’t take into account the effect of her Insanity score on her Wisdom based skills. Looking in the errata, I see that the Insanity score wasn’t included in the Will saves for Ysslansh or Poolidib either.

So I’ve invested some effort and checked the Will save for every NPC with an Insanity score. If they’re a single classed cleric, I’ve also checked their skill points – if something’s obvious been missed, I’ve reported it, noting that Spot and Listen are cross-class skills for clerics and the Alertness feat if applicable. I’ve also assumed that they haven’t used any of their character level ability score increases on their Intelligence, which I think is pretty reasonable.

I’ve included my calculations so they can be checked – I don’t know if they should be included in the actual errata, but I’ll leave that up to you. I’ve separated my analysis of each NPC with three asterisks *** - I hope that helps.

***
[b]p. 23 (M24)[/b] Gren’s Insanity score of 1 has not been factored in to her Will save; with an effective Wisdom of 13, it should only be +4.

***
Terrenygit – in the Monster Manual, an ordinary troglodyte with Dex 9 and Wis 10 still has a Hide +6 (of which only +4 is its racial bonus) and a Listen +3. I would argue that a troglodyte with class levels should also get these bonuses, which leads to the following errata:

[b]p. 46 (C11)[/b] – Terrenygit is not using all of his skill points. Base skill points = 2; Total skill points = (2 * 4) + (2 * 4) = 16. Concentration +8 (+3 Con -> 5 ranks), Hide +0* (+4 racial -6 full plate –2 large shield +2 base troglodyte -> 2 cross class ranks), Knowledge (religion) +5 (-> 5 ranks), Listen +5 (+2 effective Wis +3 base trog -> 0 ranks) = 14 skill points.

(Note – the existing monster area reference in the Errata is incorrect – it says C12 when it should be C11)

***
[b]p. 61 (C72)[/b] – Fachish has used too many skill points. Base skill points = 2 +1 Int +1 human = 4; Total skill points as Clr5 = (4 * 4) + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 32. Concentration +12 (+2 Con -> 10 ranks), Heal +9 (+1 effective Wis -> 8 ranks), Knowledge (religion) +11 (+1 Int -> 10 ranks), Listen +3 (+1 effective Wis +2 Alertness -> 0 ranks), Spellcraft +11 (+1 Int -> 10 ranks), Spot +4 (+1 effective Wis +2 Alertness -> 1 cross class rank) for 40 skill points. Suggestion: drop all ranks in Heal (after all, he’s an Evil cleric…)

***
[b]p. 63 (C74)[/b] – Choranth’s Insanity score of 2 has not been factored in to her Will save; with an effective Wisdom of 15, it should only be Will +6.

***
Poolidib raises the same problems as the troglodytes, except worse. An ordinary kuo-toa with Dex 10, Int 13, Wis 14 has skills Escape Artist +18 (+15 racial –2 large shield -> 5 ranks), Knowledge or Craft (any one) +6 (+1 Int -> 5 ranks), Listen +9 (+2 Wis -> 7 ranks), Move Silently +3 (–2 large shield -> 5 ranks), Search +10 (+1 Int +4 racial -> 5 ranks), Spot +11 (+2 Wis +4 racial -> 5 ranks). Given that his entry definitely includes Escape Artist +18, I’d see this as supporting what I’ve done for the trogs earlier. Unlike troglodytes, ordinary kuo-toas have better saving throws than their ability scores suggest, which also need to be factored in.

[b]p. 90 (C90)[/b]Poolidib’s skills aren’t correct. As a kuo-toa Clr5 has base skill points of (2 +1 Int) = 3; total skill points = (3 * 4) + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 24. Concentration +6 (+1 Con -> 5 ranks), Escape Artist +18 (+15 racial –2 large shield +5 base kuo-toa), Heal +6 (+1 effective Wis -> 5 ranks), Knowledge (religion) +6 (+1 Int -> 5 ranks), Listen +9 (+1 effective Wis +2 Alertness +7 base kuo-toa -> -1 rank), Move Silently +5 (-2 large shield +5 base kuo-toa -> 2 cross class ranks), Search +10 (+1 Int +4 racial +5 base kuo-toa -> 0 ranks), Spellcraft +2 (+1 Int -> 1 rank), Spot +13 (+1 effective Wis +4 racial +2 Alertness +5 base kuo-toa -> 1 cross class rank) = 21 skill points. You need to make Listen at least +10. Suggestion: put the extra 2 skill points after fixing Listen into Spot to make it Spot +14 (he’s a kuo-toa).

***
[b]p. 74 (C119)[/b] – Firre’s saving throws do not reflect his +1 luck bonus from the demonstone. they should be Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +7

***
[b]p. 74 (C120)[/b] – Tessimon’s Insanity score of 4 has not been factored into her Will save. With an effective Wisdom of 12, she should have Will +7.

Her skills also haven’t factored her Insanity in. She should have Heal +13, Profession (herbalist) +13

Base skill points = (2 +1 human +2 Int) = 5; Total skill points = (5 * 4) + (5 * 8) = 60. Concentration +14 (+2 Con -> 12 ranks), Heal +17 (+1 effective Wis -> 16 ranks), Knowledge (religion) +14 (+2 Int -> 12 ranks), Profession (herbalist) +15 (+1 effective Wis -> 14 ranks), Spellcraft +14 (+2 Int -> 12 ranks) = 66 skill points. Her Wisdom based skills have more ranks than her character level allows (12), and bringing them back to this maximum makes everything work out.

***
[b]p. 92 (C187)[/b] – Kelashein’s skills are incorrect. Base skill points = (2 + 1 human +2 Int) = 5; Total skill points = (5 * 4) + (5 * 6) = 50. Bluff +3 (+1 Cha -> 2 cross class ranks), Concentration +11 (+1 Con -> 10 ranks), Heal +13 (+2 effective Wis -> 11 ranks), Hide +2 (-5 mw full plate –1 mw large shield -> 8 cross class ranks), Knowledge (religion) +10 (+2 Int -> 8 ranks), Listen +5 (+2 effective Wis -> 3 cross class ranks), Spellcraft +12 (+2 Int -> 10 ranks) = 65 skill points. As her character level only allows 10 ranks maximum, reduce her Heal to +12 (probably her Insanity wasn’t been factored in). But this still puts her 16 skill points over. Suggestion: drop all ranks in Hide.


***
Oomkaan – his Will save is okay, so I’m not going anywhere near his skills: a half fiend/half kuo-toa cleric? Brrr! :)

***
[b]p. 102 (C220)[/b] – Snearak’s Insanity score of 2 has not been factored into his Will save. With an effective Wisdom of 13, it should be Will +5.

He’s also got far too many skill points. Base skill points = 2; Total skill points = (2 * 4) + (2 * 4) = 16. Concentration +7 (+2 Con -> 5 ranks), Hide +7* (-1 Dex +4 racial –6 full plate –2 large shield +2 base trog -> 10 cross class ranks), Knowledge (religion) +5 (5 ranks), Listen +4 (+1 effective Wis +3 base trog -> 0 ranks) = 30 skill points. Suggestion: drop all ranks in Hide, give Concentration and Knowledge (religion) another 3 ranks each.

***
[b]p. 103 (C223)[/b] – Uskatoth’s Will save should be Will +7.

He has also used too many skill points, probably because the Insanity score wasn’t factored into his Spot. Base skill points = (2 + 1 Int) = 3; Total skill points = (3 * 4) + (3 * 5) = 27. Concentration +8 (+2 Con -> 6 ranks), Hide +1* (+1 Dex +4 racial –6 full plate –2 large shield -> 4 cross class ranks), Knowledge (religion) +7 (+1 Int -> 6 ranks), Listen +6 (+2 effective Wis +3 base trog -> 1 cross class rank), Spellcraft +7 (+1 Int -> 6 ranks) = 28 skill points. Suggestion: drop the rank in Listen and use the extra skill point somewhere else.

***
[b]p. 104 (C226)[/b] – Miikolak’s rope of climbing has been incorrectly added to her Climb skill. It should be Climb –5.

Base skill points = 2; Total skill points = (2 * 4) + (2 * 4) = 16. Climb +4 (-5 chitin full plate -> 9 cross class ranks), Concentration +7 (+2 Con => 5 ranks), Hide +2* (+4 racial –5 chitin full plate -> 3 cross class ranks), Knowledge (religion) +5 (5 ranks), Listen +3 (+3 base trog -> 0 ranks) = 34 skill points.

***
[b]p. 111 (OF6)[/b] – Naquent’s Will save should be Will +9 (+7 as Clr10 +1 effective Wis 13 +1 cloak of resistance)

Her Heal skill also doesn’t include in her Insanity score. It should be Heal +14.

Base skill points = (2 + 1 human +3 Int) = 6; Total skill points = (6 * 4) + (6 * 9) = 24 + 54 = 78. Concentration +14 (+1 Con -> 13 ranks), Diplomacy +15 (+2 Cha -> 13 ranks), Heal +15 (+1 effective Wis -> 14 ranks), Knowledge (arcana) +16 (+3 Int -> 13 ranks), Knowledge (religion) +16 (+3 Int -> 13 ranks), Spellcraft +16 (+3 Int -> 13 ranks) = 79 ranks, with Heal having 1 more rank than her maximum of 13.

***
I note that Varachan has no Insanity score… has his conversion to Good eliminated it over time? Just an observation…

***
[b]p. 129 (IF Level 2)[/b] – Tychon’s Will save should be Will +9 (+6 as Clr9 +3 as Doom2 +0 effective Wis 11).

***
[b]p. 132 (IF Level 8.3)[/b] The First is not using all of his skill points. Base skill points = (2 Clr/Doom +1 human +3 Int) 6; Total skill points = (6 * 4) + (6 * 9) + (6 * 5) = 24 + 54 + 30 = 108. Concentration +21 (+3 Con -> 18 ranks). Heal +15 (+2 effective Wis -> 13 ranks), Knowledge (arcana) +21 (+3 Int -> 18 ranks), Knowledge (religion) +21 (+3 Int -> 18 ranks), Listen +11 (+2 effective Wis -> 9 cross class ranks), Spellcraft +21 (+3 Int -> 18 ranks) = 103 skill points. Suggestion: put the remaining 5 skill points into Heal, giving him the maximum of 18 ranks in that and a skill of Heal +20.


Edit: forgot to turn off the EZ codes the first time around

PS. if anyone knows how I could produce an arrow in the default font, I wouldn't have to use the clunky -> Thanks

Edited by: Caedrel at: 2/20/03 4:48:02 pm
Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(2/21/03 12:45 am)
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Re: More errata
Well, well, Caedrel :) First IF errata. And some good catches, if I may say so. They've all been updated.

Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/22/03 12:01 pm)
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ezSupporter
Re: More errata
Great work, Caedrel! Thanks for pointing out the insanity score affecting skills. I've looked over your calculations and have the following comments. Sorry it took me a little while to get around to it. Everything else seems to check out.

"Gren’s Insanity score of 1 has not been factored in to her Will save; with an effective Wisdom of 13, it should only be +4."
It is +4 in the module. Were you looking at Geynor Ton? This entry should be deleted.

"Terrenygit...Total skill points = (2 * 4) + (2 * 4) = 16."
A monster that advances in a class does not get x4 skills points at first level, or even a feat. It is treated as multiclassing unless the monster only has 1HD, in which case the class takes precedence (MM pg. 14). A Trog has a base +3 skill points in hide (Dex 9, not 10 like Terrenygit), so he only spent 1 cross class rank. Therefore, he's actually using 2 more skill points than he has (12 instead of 10). Suggestion: change Hide to -1 so no cross class ranks are spent.

"Fachish has used too many skill points..."
Fachish is Clr7. If you therefore add +8 skill points, it works out correctly. This entry should be deleted.

"Poolidib raises the same problems ..."
Similar response as above. With that, he has 15 skill points. A kuo-toa has +5 in listen (+2 wisdom, +2 alertness), so Poolidib must have spent 1 rank. Move silently is +3 not +5 (typo?) and is normal for a kuo-toa, no ranks. Spot = +4 racial, +3 base kuo-toa, +2 alertness, +1 wis, spent 3 cross-class ranks.
Suggestions: reduce spot to +10. Reduce listen to +8. His ranks used are therefore 5 (Concentration) + 5 (Heal) + 5 (Knowledge religion), which equals 15 for Clr5*3.

"Firre’s saving throws do not reflect his +1 luck bonus from the demonstone."
Good catch!

"Oomkaan – his Will save is okay, so I’m not going anywhere near his skills: a half fiend/half kuo-toa cleric?"
When I get around to that map (on G right now), I'll check it out.

"[Tessimon's] skills also haven’t factored her Insanity in. She should have Heal +13, Profession (herbalist) +13"
She should have Heal +15 for the synergy bonus.

"[Uskathoth] has also used too many skill points"
Same as above. Hide +1 (+4 racial, +3 trog base, +1 dex, -6 full plate, -2 shield, 1 cross class rank).
Suggestions: reduce Hide to +0, reduce Listen to +5. This now matches 18 skill points (6*3).

Miikolak has a ring of climbing, not rope. Her climb should be +5 (+10 competence, -5 chitin full plate, which functions like mw full plate). Otherwise, her skills are calculated correct (5 ranks each in concentration and knowledge religion). Hide (+4 racial, +3 base trog, -5 armor) = +2.

"I note that Varachan has no Insanity score… has his conversion to Good eliminated it over time? Just an observation…"
It would be interesting to give him the insanity score back, that's for sure, but I like the idea of removing it for non-Tharizdun and non-EEE clerics.

ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(2/22/03 1:30 pm)
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Re: More errata
I'll triple check these when I (hopefully) put them in the PDF version tonight. Here's one more that I've never gotten around to posting, but since she's here in Caedrel's...:

[b]p. 92 (C187)[/b] - Kelashein's [b]Insanity[/b] score should be 3 (Clr 7), not 2. Wis 20 for spells and DC, Wis 14 for all other Wis-based checks. Since her Wis bonus is still only +2 (15->14) for non-spell casting, nothing needs to be recalculated.


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Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(2/22/03 3:21 pm)
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Re: More errata
Ahh, sorry guys for not double-checking the stuff. Zans, if you're entering this into the PDF after double- (triple-?)checking it, I'll check it out ASAP and correct the errata thread.

Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/22/03 9:45 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: More errata
"Ahh, sorry guys for not double-checking the stuff."
No big deal, Siobharek, that's why there's many of us. I hope people check my posts, too, but I'm not sure if anyone else is anal retentive enough. :) Maybe Caedrel is a kindred spirit. :D

"Kelashein's Insanity score should be 3 (Clr 7), not 2. Wis 20 for spells..."
This gives her an extra 1st level spell. Suggestion: sanctuary.

Caedrel
Here for a while
(2/22/03 11:27 pm)
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Re: More errata
Thanks everyone - I guess knowing that I might get into the errata credits gave me additional motivation to do it :)

And thanks for the corrections, Infiniti - although since Siobharek has already put them into the actual errata, I guess he might as well amend them there directly. I definitely wanted someone to check my calculations: it was pretty hairy stuff and I wasn't certain I'd gotten it all right... :)

Thanks for the info on the base creatures too - I struggled with that bit. I actually want to get hold of Savage Species, as it sounds like it will be very helpful in that area...

I also have another addition for Firre too - his demonstone bonus is being included for his attacks but not for weapon damage. If so, that would mean we have to add:

Furthermore, Firre's damage doesn't include his +1 bonus for the demonstone. They should therefore be +10/+5 melee (1d6+3/19-20, [i]short sword +1[/i]) or +10/+5 ranged (1d6+2/x3, mighty composite shortbow [+1 Str bonus]).

Calculations: with shortsword, +1 Str +1 enchantment +1 [i]demonstone[/i] = +3; with shortbow, it’s +1 Str +1 [i]demonstone[/i] = +2


Given that I’ve also been looking at skill points, I also have a really pedantic point about the errata regarding Burne’s skill points. By my calculations, he’s used 76 skill points:
Concentration +15 (+5 Int -> 10 ranks), Knowledge (history) +10 (+5 Int -> 5 ranks), Knowledge (local) +11 (+5 Int -> 6 ranks), Knowledge (the planes) +11 (+5 Int -> 6 ranks), Knowledge (religion) +11 (+5 Int -> 6 ranks), Listen +3 (3 cross class ranks), Move Silently +3 (3 cross class ranks), Scry +12 (+5 Int -> 7 ranks), Search +8 (+5 Int -> 3 cross class ranks), Spellcraft +18 (+5 Int, 12 ranks), Spot +3 (3 cross class ranks) = 10 + 5 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 7 + 6 + 12 + 6 = 76

He’s listed in the original Temple of Elemental Evil as a Magic User Level 8 with Intelligence 17 – this works pretty well with the conversion to 3e, since RttToEE has him as a Wiz10 with Int 21 (+2 headband of intellect, 2 ability score increases at level 4 and 8) . But this means that his available skill points would be: from 1st to 3rd, Int 17, base skill points = (2 +1 human +3 Int) =        6, total skill points = (6 * 4) + (6 * 2) = 24 + 12 = 36; from 4th to 10th, Int 18-19, base skill points = (2 + 1 human +4 Int) = 7, total skill points = (7 * 7) = 49 for an overall total of 36 + 49 = 85 skill points, leaving him with only 9 skill points unallocated. Even if he’s been wearing his headband of intellect constantly since he acquired it, that would only count for levels 9 and 10, tops, for another 2 skill points and a total of 11 unallocated…

Brr! I guess all that proves is that I may be anally retentive enough... :)

sok
Looking around
(2/23/03 3:46 am)
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Hedracks Skill Points
Im not sure if this has been errata'ed, but i tried creating
Hedrack using the Dnd Character Generator Demo, and found there was no way could allocate all his skill points to his the skills he has.

Sok

Caedrel
Here for a while
(2/23/03 3:32 pm)
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Re: Hedrack and Firre
Sok, the character generator demo is good for standard characters, but Hedrack has an Insanity score that reduces his effective Wisdom for skill point allocation - Hedrack has clearly put some ranks into Spot and Listen, which will be affected by this.

I've also seen that Firre Oranac's attack bonuses are also wrong; he should always gets +3 Ftr3 +3 Clr4 +1 size +1 demonstone; in melee with +1 Str +1 magic shortsword +1 weapon focus, that’s +11/+6; ranged +3 Dex is also +11/+6.

His AC should be 22 (+6 magic chain +3 magic large shield +1 size +2 max Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 20

With all of these errors for Firre, I’ve put together an errata entry that could replace the existing one(s) about him:

[b]p. 74 (C119)[/b]Firre Oranac has a number of errors; his HD don’t include his 17 Constitution, his demonstone bonus isn’t included in several places and his speed isn’t reduced from his medium armour. His revised stat block is:

[b]Firre Oranac:[/b] male gnome Ftr3/Clr4; CR 7; small humanoid (gnome); HD 3d10+9+4d8+12; hp 58; Init +7; Spd 15 ft; AC 22 (touch 14, flat-footed 20); Atk +11/+6 melee (1d6+3/19-20, [i]+1 short sword[/i]) or +11/+6 ranged (1d6+2/x3, mighty composite shortbow [+1 Str bonus]); SA rebuke undead 2/day; SQ cantrips, insanity, low-light vision, speak with burrowing animals, +2 bonus on saves against illusions, +1 bonus on attacks against kobolds and goblinoids, +4 dodge bonus to AC against giants; AL CE; SV Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +7; Str 12, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 9.

Edit: corrected Firre's AC in the above to reflect Infiniti2000's feedback - thanks

Edit again: posted without ezcodes this time for ease of cutting & pasting into errata

Edited by: Caedrel at: 2/25/03 3:12:07 pm
Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/24/03 7:33 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: Hedrack and Firre
"His AC should be 23 (+6 magic chain +3 magic large shield +1 size +3 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 20 (counting the shield when you’re flat footed – is this right? Being a small character, can Firre use a large shield?)"

Yes, the shield counts when you are flat-footed. A small character would have a "smaller" large shield than a medium-size character, but it still counts as a large shield. A magical shield should resize to the wearer, however.

His AC as listed in the module is wrong, I agree, but his AC is 22 (touch 13, flat-footed 20). This is because chainmail had a max Dex bonus of +2.

I agree with the attack bonuses.

One other thing on Firre Oranac, his skills do not include the demonstone, so add +1 to all of his skills.

Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(2/25/03 7:27 am)
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Re: Hedrack and Firre
Um...about that.

Firre Oranac isn't carrying the Demonstone. Unless I recall wrongly, it's in the bottom of the nasty-looking box in the torture chamber, and thus should not be granting him the +s to abilities unless he runs in there and picks it up before a fight.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(2/25/03 7:32 am)
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Re: Hedrack and Firre
Aw MAN. You're right, Andorax. I specifically remember my players finding it in the chest. That begs a question, though: Why doesn't he carry the stone around?

Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(2/25/03 9:47 am)
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Re: Hedrack and Firre
Please disregard my correction. As Shidara pointed out in the new Demonstone thread, you do not have to have the Demonstone in your posession to gain the luck bonus.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Edited by: Andorax at: 2/25/03 9:50:23 am
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