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Entropius
Here for a while
(2/26/03 12:28 am)
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Lareth surprises PC's in a big way... (+ an XP question)
I just got back from DM'ing; it's 2 AM and I have to get up, so I won't post a full log now ... but I just have to post this. Full log to follow.
Cast:
Lelenia, half-elf Brd5
Hanks, dwarf Cle5 (Moradin)
Boddyknock Glinckle, gnome Ill5
Liliana, human Pal5
*name forgotten* Hum Rog4/Cle1 (Olimmadara) (guest player, will call Fred)
Tyrion, elf Ftr2/Rog3
Bob, human War1 (NPC flunky)
They decide to explore the ruined temple (after clearing everything in the moathouse except the obelisk chamber, which they chickened out from). The road leads through Nulb. First they go into the hostel and poke around for a bit, until Wat flubs a death attack roll on Lelenia. Next round he manifests, however, and Lelenia, Liliana, and Fred fail their saves vs. horrific appearance. (They were flabbergasted by the ability drain... the first truly nasty thing that they've hit so far, except for Big U and Chat). The party leaves, and Boddyknock tosses a fireball in the hostel ... lucking upon the way to get rid of Wat.
Side note: do they get the full CR 8 experience for doing this? They didn't beat him in combat, but they did set him to rest...
Anyway, they keep going. Lareth hails them grumpily ("More travellers here to disturb my despair?"). I describe him as an ugly man with a scar (and show them the picture), smoking a pipe and holding a staff. Liliana and Boddyknock wisecrack at him... bad mistake. He cuts loose with a Confusion, nabbing Tyrion, Lelenia, and Fred. The first round of confusion, Lelenia rolls "attack nearest object", which is ... her horse! She stabs it, it runs off, she falls off.
Tyrion does very little except charge (and sneak attack!) Lelenia 5 rounds into the confusion.
Fred quickly wanders off.
On the first round of initiative, Boddyknock as usual goes invisible, while Liliana and Hanks advance. Lareth pops back inside to buff from out of sight. He already had bull's strength, greater magic weapon, and endurance on; while inside he casts divine favor and protection from good. As soon as Hanks gets up to the door, Lareth screams at him and smashes with his quarterstaff.
Hanks: "Heh, the wizard's attacking us... that's always a good sign."
(They thought Lareth was a wizard for a while... dude with no armor and a staff)
He has AC 20.
Now I do my attack rolls out in the open; I probably shouldn't, but I do.
I roll a 4.
Hanks: "Whew."
Lareth's attack bonus is +12 (listed), +1 from additional strength bonus, +2 from divine favor, +1 from greater magic weapon.
Me: "I hit AC 20... that gets you, right?"
He gets a little worried.
I roll damage... it's a 6.
Me: "Take 18 points damage."
The party's collective jaw drops.
To cut a long story short (I'll post the journal when I have more time), Lareth managed to kill that dwarf with more thwacks and a Searing Light (lesson for the ages: when at 1 hp, don't cast Summon Monster III*.), reduce the paladin to -3 con with Poison (but she's still alive--she had to leave early and is an inexperienced player, so I didn't want to kill her off in her absence--that's just mean. I ruled she's stable at -1/-1 hp, since that's what she's got with a -7 con mod.)
He rolled a 1 on an "unarmed attack plus inflict wounds" thingy; if he hadn't, that would have been 3d8+7+1d3+lots. Ouchies?
After he absorbs a tremendous amount of punishment from the rest of the party, Tyrion finally comes out of confusion, runs in, and crits him. Splat. (I swapped one of his spells for a cure, and he had extra hp from rage and endurance. House rule: the bonus from rage is a morale bonus, not enhancement, so it stacks)
In another bit of hilarity, Lelenia attacked Liriel's heavy warhorse in confusion, which understandably hit back for about 13 hp in one round. Ow.
*He summoned a small earth elemental. Since it was five feet from the (unknowing) Champion of Elemental Evil, I gave it a +40% chance to turn bad. Sure enough, it did, and finally got thwacked by Liliana.
So now they have a dead dwarf who needs to be hauled back to Y'dey quickly (in time for raising), an unconscious paladin, and one horse. I think they're going to drag everyone away from Nulb, scratch their arses until the pally wakes up, and tie the corpse to the horse with the pally riding it back.
... and the rest get to hang around Nulb and brave the random encounter table for Tharizdun-knows-how-long until the pally and newly-raised dwarf get back.
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Zenon
Here for a while
(2/26/03 5:28 am)
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Re: Lareth surprises PC's in a big way... (+ an XP question)
I would give the the CR8 XP for overcoming Wat (even though they don't quite know how they did it).
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Taxman66
Here for a while
(2/26/03 6:12 am)
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Re: Lareth surprises PC's in a big way... (+ an XP question)
Personally I don't agree with your Rage house rule and I especially don't agree with causing the elemental to go evil near Lareth (he aint the champinion yet, and even so that is an effect of the CRM/dreaming stone anyway).
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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 Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/26/03 6:54 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Lareth surprises PC's in a big way... (+ an XP question)
They should get full XP for Wat. I'm not sure why you made it a morale bonus. As is, it is an unamed bonus and therefore stacks with any other bonus. The Str 18 from divine power and bull's strength don't stack, however, because they are both enhancement bonuses.
As for the elemental, it seems like a neat idea, but it will confuse the hell out of the players. Will you provide them an opportunity to figure out what happened? This could lead to a premature revelation before they get to the CRM, but I see nothing else wrong with it.
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Entropius
Here for a while
(2/26/03 7:49 am)
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re: rage, elemental
{ I'm not sure why you made it a morale bonus}
Morale bonus as in "not an enhancement bonus, so it stacks with bull's strength", basically. It stacks with anything that barbarian rage will stack with-morale was just a handy type to give it on the boards (hey, it was 2:30 AM, and I'm sick...)
He didn't have divine power... he used divine favor, which is the first-level +to-hit/damage spell.
I'm not sure what to do yet about the elemental issue; I'll probably have some good-aligned NPC summon one (maybe Spugnoir has an air elemental familiar instead of a cat, since Sebbekai hasn't showed up yet). They'll probably come to the conclusion that it was because they were close to the old ToEE, which is an accurate enough (and safe enough for the Lareth spoiler) assumption.
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/26/03 11:05 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: re: rage, elemental
No, by making it a morale bonus, it does not stack with anything Barbarian rage stacks with, because a Barbarian rage is not a morale bonus. If you just leave it as an unamed bonus it stacks with everything. Off hand I can't think of anything else that grants a morale bonus to strength, so this question might be moot. 
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Cordo Crowfoot
Here for a while
(2/26/03 5:06 pm)
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Re: rage, elemental
Maybe I am just mean but I wouldn't give them xp from a CR8 (very signficant, higher than Big U by the book) but would give them 25 to 50% of it or a story bonus if you use those. One thing you have to remember is that if you are "nice" awarding full XP in these situations, character level will soon outstrip equipment.
We had a big thread here in the past about when to award XP if the opposition flees or isn't defeated completely. At the time nobody mentioned it, but one critical datapoint should be if the party recovers the "loot".
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(2/26/03 9:02 pm)
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Re: rage, elemental
Quote:
Maybe I am just mean but I wouldn't give them xp from a CR8 (very signficant, higher than Big U by the book) but would give them 25 to 50% of it or a story bonus if you use those. One thing you have to remember is that if you are "nice" awarding full XP in these situations, character level will soon outstrip equipment.
Hey, they just have to go back and sift through the ashes for the GT longsword, no? That's all he's got really anyway...
I too have a hard time awarding full XP for truly accidental kills, but they did take some punishment from him and wasted that spell to fry the place in this case. The decision to do it must have been done with the intent to hurt him, right?
What I wouldn't do here is give any XP for Dala since they didn't encounter her at all. But does she evaporate too? Inquiring minds want to know!
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Entropius
Here for a while
(2/26/03 11:08 pm)
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experience
I already gave them full XP for Wat. If they do clear the hobgoblins, they should be right at 6th level by the time they get to Rastor, with one 5th level character (the stunty that died and had to be raised)
Is this normal? The beginning of the CRM is marked for 5th, but I suspect most parties are 6th by the time they get there.
-Entropius
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Cordo Crowfoot
Here for a while
(2/26/03 11:55 pm)
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Re: experience
Yes, it's very normal to have an average party level of 6 if they do anything other than go directly to Rastor from the Moathouse.
Quote:
I too have a hard time awarding full XP for truly accidental kills, but they did take some punishment from him and wasted that spell to fry the place in this case. The decision to do it must have been done with the intent to hurt him, right?
Hmm... To state my point better sometimes it feels like you are rewarding players if you are "nice" and award a lot of XP in iffy situations. But if you don't pay attention to treasure levels as well, being too nice can make their levels go much higher than their average wealth in magic items. I made this mistake in my own campaign.
And if the party misses out on an 8300gp longsword (at least 1000gp each), but gets xp from a CR8 encounter, that is falling behind a step. And especially if you are following published material like RttToEE, it may be hard to make up this deficit unless you boost later treasures.
Edited by: Cordo Crowfoot at: 2/27/03 1:36:29 am
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/27/03 8:10 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: experience
They encountered Wat, got badly injured, got away, and then defeated him. They should get full experience. Just because they did not get the treasure should not make them get less XP. They will have to pay a lot of money for restorations. Perhaps you could suggest (maybe an NPC) that Wat probably had a ghost touch weapon in order to affect anyone and that maybe they should search the ashes.
They should get nothing for Dala.
On the flip side of the XP/treasure question, if they party just decided to burn the hostel before encountering Wat and then search the ashes, would they find the longsword? Yes, and they shouldn't get the XP for it.
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Entropius
Here for a while
(2/27/03 9:13 am)
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Wat
Infiniti: That was my call too on Wat's experience. They're stuck in the area around Nulb for a couple of days at least (have to haul dead dwarf back to Y'dey for a raise, and they won't make it in time on foot, so one person will have to ride back.)
The lack of treasure probably won't be an issue; 8k gold is a large amount, but it shouldn't impact things too badly. If it does, there's always just bumping up loot a little bit. Maybe the hobgoblins have a stash of something, or Rarkus has a magical sword... there are lots of ways to get the party back on the xp/loot curve without breaking continuity.
Their paladin is currently at -3 con: 4 permanent drain from Wat's "Boo!" attack, plus 11 temporary damage from Lareth's poison spell. See the original post for why she's still alive despite a negative constitution. Either way, she'll be unconscious for four days until she makes it into positive Con-land.
This leaves an illusionist and a fighter-rogue alone for a while in Nulb, since I suspect the bard will be the one who rides back with the corpse. There's a chance they may search the ashes then, having nothing else to do, but they'll probably have to hole up for a while and brave the random nasties lurking around Nulb while waiting for everyone else.
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ZansForCans
Here for a while
(2/27/03 7:09 pm)
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Re: Wat
Gotcha, CC. I already feel like my party is strapped for cash (we're around where Entroplus is). If they get ability blasted (much less a kill) in Nulb, they're going to be hurting to scrape up the money for healing. I plan to try to do a secret count before they head to Rastor to make sure it's working out...
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Cordo Crowfoot
Here for a while
(2/27/03 7:27 pm)
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Re: experience
Quote:
They encountered Wat, got badly injured, got away, and then defeated him. They should get full experience.
I guess I will just respectfully disagree. I wouldn't award full experience to a group who "defeated" Wat that way, especially as he is a CR8, probably their biggest source of xp to date. But I would give partial xp as I said above. My point about treasure was a side point that I think people need to keep in mind and which can at times be handy.
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/27/03 7:58 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: experience
Hey, no problem Cordo.
I suppose my generosity in this case might help explain why my @$#! PC's are so high level (all nearly 7th) before even getting to Rastor.
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