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Entropius
Here for a while
(2/27/03 2:17 pm)
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Five-foot step rules
I hope you guys don't mind me asking a question that's not specifically RttToEE-related, but this is something that has come up (in the fight vs. Lareth) that I'm not sure of, and I'm not sure of anywhere else to ask it.
I only played under one DM (who was himself new) before becoming a DM myself. His interpretation of the five-foot rule (which seems to be correct BTB) was that you could make a 5-foot step as part of a standard action as long as you didn't also move in the same round.
I've been interpreting it the same way IMC.
The upshot of this is that it's very rare for spellcasters to suffer AoO's or be forced to cast defensively, since they can simply step back and cast. Is this correct?
Also, in the fight vs. Lareth, he started one round with one intervening square between him and the party's paladin. He cast poison, made a five-foot step toward the paladin, and took his touch. Is this the way 5-footing works?
edit: clarity & grammar in one sentence
Edited by: Entropius at: 2/27/03 2:20:12 pm
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benhamtroll
Here to stay
(2/27/03 3:47 pm)
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Re: Five-foot step rules
That's pretty much my understanding. The 5' step can always be taken (unless you are only allowed partial actions, I believe), and never draws an attack of opportunity.
So, your caster can step back and cast, or cast and step up. This assumes that you combat is nice and neat and the 5' step doesn't lead into another threatened area which would require defensive casting or whatnot.
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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(2/27/03 4:13 pm)
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Re: Five-foot step rules
despite the fact that this post belongs on the 'rules' board, a little lower than the RttToEE, i'll give my opinion.
In case that someone who's in melee moves 5 feet out of range and then takes an action, other than moving further, he will provoke an attack of opportunity...
AoO says that moving within or out of a target's threat range provokes an AoO
so when you take a 5 ft step to get out of threatened squaren you'll draw an AoO
if however, all you do is move during your turn in the round, the square you leave is not considered threatedned from ONE opponent (your choice)
moving into someone threat does not provoke an AoO, unless he has reach, in which case, you move within his threat range and you will draw an AoO
AoO is the most complicated matter in 3E i think... but the rules are pretty simple when you think them over!
move within or out of threatening range = AoO
exception: full round disengage
so in your example, a caster moving 5 feet out of reach and casting a spell will draw an AoO, which wouldn't be so bad i suppose... he'll live, and it wont interefere with his casting...
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Caedrel
Here for a while
(2/27/03 4:32 pm)
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Re: Five-foot step rules
Yes, AoOs are probably the most complicated part of combat. Yes, the spellcaster can take a 5' step back, cast the spell, and not draw an AoO - but if the fighter type survives whatever spell is cast, s/he can take a 5' step forward and then unload on the spellcaster with a full attack action.
Guy from Belgium, you're close, but not quite - PHB p122 "Attacks of Opportunity", "Provoking an Attack of Opportunity", last sentence says:
Quote:
... if your entire move for the round is 5 feet (a 5-foot step), enemies do not get attacks of opportunity for your moving.
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ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(2/27/03 7:29 pm)
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Re: Five-foot step rules
Quote:
...but if the fighter type survives whatever spell is cast, s/he can take a 5' step forward and then unload on the spellcaster with a full attack action.
On top of that, once this happens (or even before, if your PC/NPC is smart enough), you should really be readying an attack against the caster. This way, the damage you do (although not a full attack) forces them to make a concentration check.
Since readying is a standard action, you can move up into position as close as you want before the ready. Then you can even take another 5' step as a part of the partial action you are going to execute, allowing you to keep pace with the caster's own 5' step back. Or, if you can stand the -2 AC penalty, ready a charge against them and get your full move (as long as you have a straight line to the target and will move at least 10').
BTW, this last bit can be used in a bit of a tricky fashion to overcome the straight-line restriction of the normal, standard action charge. Just move your full move and then ready a partial charge against a foe. That first move is part of the ready and is not subject to the straight-line part of the partial charge. However, you are giving up your init advantage (i.e. something(s) can take actions between you and the foe), and the charge can be foiled by someone getting in the way (or other random circumstances) so it can be a bit of a risk. You'll lose your readied action in this case.
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 Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/27/03 7:31 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Five-foot step rules
Caedrel is right, a 5ft-step is outside the rules governing "movement" because a 5ft-step is not "movement" but an adjustment during combat. With good tactics on both sides, you should find that nearly everyone on the battlefield takes a 5ft-step (if not other movement) every round, trying to get flanking opportunities, blocking, getting into/out of position, etc. Indeed, IMO, this more closely simulates the chaotic nature of battle.
"The upshot of this is that it's very rare for spellcasters to suffer AoO's or be forced to cast defensively, since they can simply step back and cast. Is this correct?"
True, unless the caster wants to cast a few touch spells, then he would have to step back, cast, and wait until next round to step forward and touch the target (only one 5ft-step per round). This would limit the caster to one touch spell every other round, which is a very fair and balanced tradeoff, IMO.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Here for a while
(2/27/03 7:34 pm)
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Re: Five-foot step rules
Entropius, to counter this you can have your enemies take a prepared action.
"IF my opponent steps back 5' and starts casting a spell/starts to load his missile weapon I will move towards him with a 5' step and attack."
I warn my players if they have reason to keep an eye on this person, usually saying something like "The guard stops attacking and is watching you intently."
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Entropius
Here for a while
(2/27/03 8:01 pm)
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readied actions
Yeah, I've thought about doing that to disrupt people's spells.
On another note: consider a decently-high level sorcerer who knows [i]dispel magic[/i] and [i]haste[/i] in a confrontation with another spellcaster-type.
First round the sorcerer hastes himself and then sets an action to counterspell with his partial action.
Second and subsequent rounds the sorcerer casts some boomy-spell and uses his partial action to prepare a counterspell.
Granted, in a party situation there are always other variables (usually in the form of nasty fighter-types), but this could be avoided with spells like [i]levitate[/i] and [i]protection from arrows[/i]. The enemy wizard might get some spells off... but the most critical one (dispel magic!) is guaranteed to be countered, at least until Sorcy runs out of 3rd+ slots.
No, it's not overpowering. But it could certainly be annoying...
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/27/03 8:11 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: readied actions
"First round the sorcerer hastes himself and then sets an action to counterspell with his partial action.
Second and subsequent rounds the sorcerer casts some boomy-spell and uses his partial action to prepare a counterspell."
Interesting idea, but readying an action is a standard action. So, the end effect is the same, but semantics why it is different. I.e. you use the partial action first to cast haste or the boom spell, and then the standard action to ready (you can even move somewhere and ready because it is a standard action).
Unfortunately, if the readied action occurs next round, then the sorcerer only gets that action (the counterspell attempt) plus another partial action, so you cannot ready another counterspell in that round. However, since you are now in the initiative order before the other mage you will always have the advantage and you will get the partial action (boom) plus the standard action (ready) followed by the mage attempting to cast and hopefully getting dispelled.
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Thrommel
Can't leave now (mod)
(2/27/03 10:07 pm)
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Re: readied actions
This is the best place to ask these sorts of rules questions.
The problem with asking off-topic questions here is that there is a limit to the number of pages EZ Boards will store. This forum is not archived. Therefore, every non-RttToEE post is just bumping some other RttToEE-specific post off the end of page 20 and into the abyss.
So, I don't mean to sound like the Grinch, but people should really take these things to the D&D Rules forum.
-Thrommel, Grinch with the vampire template.
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Entropius
Here for a while
(2/27/03 10:19 pm)
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Oopsies...
That's perfectly understandable, o bloodsucking one. Sorry. Since I joined the forum about two weeks ago, I've enjoyed reading the 20-page "backscroll", and wish the rest was archived... I'll ask Newbie Rules Questions over there in the future.
... or, would it work to designate DM Dan76's thread as the quickie Q&A thread? If they're all in one thread, they won't push things off the 20-page limit... or is there a post-per-thread limit?
Silly ezboard.
-Entropius
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Hypersmurf
Looking around
(2/28/03 2:01 am)
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Re: Oopsies...
Quote:
Since readying is a standard action, you can move up into position as close as you want before the ready. Then you can even take another 5' step as a part of the partial action you are going to execute...
No. You can only take a 5' step if you have not moved any actual distance in the round.
Quote:
BTW, this last bit can be used in a bit of a tricky fashion to overcome the straight-line restriction of the normal, standard action charge. Just move your full move and then ready a partial charge against a foe. That first move is part of the ready and is not subject to the straight-line part of the partial charge.
The FAQ states that you can only make a partial charge if any preceding movement in the round has been along the line of the charge - no readied actions to dog-leg a charge.
Quote:
"Second and subsequent rounds the sorcerer casts some boomy-spell and uses his partial action to prepare a counterspell."
Interesting idea, but readying an action is a standard action.
"As a general rule, you can do as much with a partial action as you could with a standard action minus a move." - PHB p127.
In other words, you can use a Partial Action to ready a Partial Action, such as a counterspell.
-Hyp.
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(2/28/03 8:05 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Oopsies...
Lost my post. 
"...would it work to designate DM Dan76's thread as the quickie Q&A thread?"
SIERK has already started a Rules thread, which is currently on page 4. More importantly, it also contains tactics and therefore is much more relevant to RttToEE.
"In other words, you can use a Partial Action to ready a Partial Action..."
I disagree, but in order to garner a bigger response, I've started a thread in the rules forum.
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ZansForCans
Here for a while
(2/28/03 11:32 am)
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Re: Oopsies...
{No. You can only take a 5' step if you have not moved any actual distance in the round.}
Hrmmm... I don't see this listed under partial actions or readying (partial says 'typically'). The tricky thing is that the readying is your standard action for the round. The execution of your partial comes before the condition and you don't get another stanard/full round action until that init value comes up again.
I see the argument for it though. The FAQ answer for my foible below does have this at the end:
Quote:
You don't get a move-equivalent action plus a partial action
as your turn. You get either a standard action (which does not
allow a 5-foot step), a full-move action (which allows a 5-foot
step if the action itself doesn't include movement), or a partial
action (which also allows a 5-foot step if the action doesn't
include movement).
But this seems to support that you can take that 5' on the partial if the partial doesn't include movement.
Have any better RAW refs?
{The FAQ states that you can only make a partial charge if any preceding movement in the round has been along the line of the charge - no readied actions to dog-leg a charge.}
Thanks for pointing that out! I couldn't find any RAW references at all on this when I was writing it up. Figures that the only munchin-ish thing that I've thought up is alreay quashed 
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thegreatbuddha11
Here for a while
(3/1/03 7:41 pm)
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Re: Oopsies...
You can't take a 5' step as part of a readied action, IIRC. I semi-remember a restriction against taking free actions as part of a readied action, and a 5' step is a free action. Assuming that that line of reasoning is correct, there is no allowance for moving as part of a readied action, unless you ready a move action.
I don't have access to any of my booksright now; is anybody willing to find a source for the free action restriction?
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ZansForCans
Here for a while
(3/1/03 9:03 pm)
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Re: Oopsies...
{You can't take a 5' step as part of a readied action, IIRC}
OK, I browsed the FAQ and there's no info about free actions in readied or partials (and I don't think I've ever seen that restriction myself), but it does explicitly say several times that you can take a 5' step on the readied partial action. Here's three direct quotes:
Quote:
Alternatively, you could prepare an action to disrupt a spellcaster and you can make a 5-foot step or even a partial charge to close with the spellcaster and deliver the attack.
Quote:
You also could do the following: Ready an action so that when the archer steps away from you, you make a partial charge against him or just a 5-foot step and an attack).
Quote:
The ready action allows you to specify one partial action and the condition under which you will perform the action. You could simply ready an attack on the wizard whenever he casts a spell, and this would allow you to do any number of things, including attack, take a 5-foot step and attack, or even make a partial charge and attack.
Now, none of these address Hypersmurf's comment that if you moved during the ready standard action that you can't move on the triggered partial. I haven't seen anything there yet, but might fire off a Q on the Rules forum for curiosity.
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(3/1/03 10:15 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: free actions
"I don't have access to any of my booksright now; is anybody willing to find a source for the free action restriction? "
You might be thinking about AoO. You cannot take free actions on attacks of opportunity because it is not your turn. In a readied action, it is your turn so you can take a free action, such as call out, quick draw a weapon, etc.
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thegreatbuddha11
Here for a while
(3/2/03 12:55 pm)
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Re: free actions
Turn out you're right. I was also thinking of the Pressing Attack feat. It allows a 5ft step whenever someone you threaten takes a 5ft step away from you.
My bad.
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(3/3/03 7:52 am)
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Re: free actions
I would have to do some serious research to find the specific rules quotes but this debate has gone on at length and been researched in the past.
There are two absolute restrictions on 5' steps.
1) You can only take one 5' step in a round. Haste doesn't matter. Supreme Cleave doesn't matter. No matter what you are only allowed a single 5' step in the course of a round, however and whenever you go about taking it.
2) You cannot take that 5' step if you take any other movement in the round, either before or after. The 5' step is your allowed "movement if you don't move".
It is also worth noting that:
1) Size doesn't matter. Fine creatures take a 5' step as their adjustment. Colossal creatures take a 5' step as their adjustment. No matter what, it's a minor shift of position on the battlefield.
2) Action doesn't matter. A 5' step can be taken before or after your action, your partial action (from haste), your readied action, your free action, whatever. The 5' step, when legally taken, is essentially a "free action" movement.
If you wish, you are entitled to take your 5' step even BETWEEN NORMAL ATTACKS. Yes, you can take attack #1, fell a foe, take your 5' step, and take your attack #2 from a "full attack" action. Likewise, if it would negate cover or concealment, you could shoot Arrow #1, step 5' to the right and shoot Arrow #2 at someone else.
Again, the lack of documentation on this is due to insufficient time to pull it up. These are accurate and I am quite certain of them.
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(3/3/03 8:11 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: free actions
Not that my opinion matters, but I agree 100% with you, Andorax. 
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