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benhamtroll
Here to stay
(3/2/03 7:52 pm)
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Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
I'm running my party into the Old Temple tomorrow, so I was wondering if anyone here had some last minute advice, or info on trouble spots, etc. . .
Fore example:
How did your party enter the temple? Frontal assault, or sneaky?
There's no business like gnoll business |
Hypersmurf
Here for a while
(3/2/03 8:33 pm)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
Mine tried sneaky... they managed to lure off the dogs, they got in position for a simultaneous strike on the gatehouse guards and the main door guards...
... and then the monk blew a Move Silently roll with a natural 1.
They wiped out all the guards... except the one who escaped inside to shout a warning.
The party then dithered for a few rounds as to what to do next... giving the orcs (IMC) within time to prepare.
When they eventually opened the door, they found they couldn't see much; I used a BoB suggestion to have the inhabitants - all of whom have darkvision, once you apply the fiendish template to the Dire Ape  ) - prepare the Temple in advance by blacking out all the windows.
... but the Elite Guards with javelins and greataxes, already Bull's Strengthed and ready to rage 60 feet back from the doorway, could see them just fine...
-Hyp.
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Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(3/2/03 11:58 pm)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
Yeah, bear in mind the size of that room. It's huge. Unless the PCs lob a few sunrods or cast a few light spells, the hobgoblins will be able to dictate the circumstances of the combat.
Have you thought about the idea proposed a while ago of erecting catwalks? The goblins (and some hobs) could run around up there lobbing arrows and alchemist's fire down on the PCs. If your group's a little on the strong side for the encounter as written, that's a fine way of upping the ante a little.
My PCs skirted the area and used input from a hawk familiar to get the basic lay of the land. They then took out the renegade hobs in the tower, followed by the adept and her cronies in the cellar. Then they began taking out the guards at the front (and one managed to alert the temple).
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(3/3/03 1:49 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
full frontal... and that cost them dearly... the hobs had erected barricades inside and peppered them with javelins. When they finally scaled the barricades, about 12 hobs were more than eager to join the fray.
Add some flavour by making the hobgoblin adept a necromancer and have him raise his fallen brethren...
all in all the damage to the party was decent... and they lost the monk there 
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Kylearanon
Here for a while
(3/3/03 4:06 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
What level would the adept need to be able to raise his brethren ?
Kyle
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Cordo Crowfoot
Here for a while
(3/3/03 4:11 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
My party snuck over the wall, cleared all the surrounding areas without alerting the front gate guards, snuck around and engaged the front gate guards and the dogs, but one guard escaped into the temple proper.
We then called it a day. In the next session they sat around and discussed what to do and finally decided to head inside in a frontal assault because they are "just hobgoblins", doing no scouting whatsoever. In the process of doing various things they also gave the hobgoblins several minutes to prepare their defenses.
The hobgoblins had set a simple trap which the most basic scouting would have revealed. Their overconfidence led to a near TPK with 3 dead, 2 captured, and only 1 escaping.
I think since hobgoblins are described as being quite the sticklers for military discipline, you can play them very smart tactically - aiming for spellcasters, being aware of fireball threat, trying to flank and surround where possible. In hindsight I probably would have more clearly warned my players that hobgoblins are known for being the most well disciplined and tactical humanoids.
But I think particularly in this fight you have a lot of leeway as DM as too how hard the fight is going to be. A lot of people seem to have the main forces charge the party in the courtyard, which is not at all advantageous for the hobgolbins since they have darkvision.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Siobharek
Still here? Wow.
(3/3/03 4:49 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
Quote:
What level would the adept need to be able to raise his brethren ?
Raise?! As in bring back to the dead? C'mon, this is a side trek. Probably there in order to throw players who did the original module. A straight cleric would be 9th, 4 levels above the EL for this area. An adept... <checks the SRD> would have to be 16th level and have 20 Wisdom to cast raise dead.
That's way above this encounter, I think.
And I'm with Cordo on keeping the fight inside. It got quite evocative what with the great number of columns and all. Today, everyone would think The Mines of Moria - which is a good thing. Something that makes the Fellowship run should give a bunch of 5th levels reason to run.
BTW, make sure that you've got the grappling rules down for the dire ape.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
madfox
Still here? Wow.
(3/3/03 5:27 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
My players skirted around the place, using stealth to dispatch the hobgoblins at the tower and the cronies in the cellar. They then managed to kill the dogs without setting on an alarm. Dispatching the guards at the entrance of the temple was also succesfull. They had overlooked the guards at the entrance though and due to the silence they had cast on themselves none of them noticed the sound of the alarm bells  When they went in, they got a very nasty surprise. They more or less split up to deal with the various small groups of hobgoblin units and goblins on the catwalks. It was then that the dire ape and Utrimosh charged in. The barbarian surrendered the next round to Utrimosh with only 1 hit point left and no cleric within reach who was healing the PC facing the dire ape and the invisible adept. All I hope is that my players learned a lesson, but I am not too sure.
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(3/3/03 8:01 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
Hey, Siobharek....I think you missed a post. Step back one further and re-read:
Quote:
Add some flavour by making the hobgoblin adept a necromancer and have him raise his fallen brethren...
Methinks that the suggestion wasn't raise, as in "raise dead", it was raise as in "animate dead".
With that in mind, Animate Dead is available to 8th level Adepts (with a 16+ Wis), or 9th level thereafter. Still awfully powerful for the level and circumstances, but it's not inconceivable that the Adept has a Scroll of Animate Dead from a more powerful past cleric, and might well make good use of it.
Definately consider the Dire Ape as a good candidate (if dead, of course) for an Animate as a Large Zombie.
You might also consider using the Skeleton and Zombie templates (from the WotC Website) in lieu of the standard Skeleton/Zombie rules. Or, if you're feeling more creative, allow the corruption of the site to create Bone and Corpse creatures (as per the BoVD) in lieu of conventional Skeletons and Zombies.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Taxman66
Here for a while
(3/3/03 8:39 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
Animating bodies that fall durring the battle isn't really a valid tactic. Note the Material Compenent of Animate Dead states:
Quote:
You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 50 gp into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned out shells.
And you can't be sneaky and have the goblins sucking on onyx gems before they die, since it states it has to be placed in the corpse.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(3/3/03 9:34 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
since i indeed meant animate dead, bringing them back as skeletons and zombies and also meant that the adept used a scroll to do so... the onyx in each socket wasn't necesarry anymore, since that price is already calculated into the scroll... thus making it a cakewalk to raise some zombies while the elite warriors are preparing to strike...
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Taxman66
Here for a while
(3/3/03 10:26 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
That brings up an interresting rules/intention debate. I find the tactic, although perfectly legal, of circumventing that requirement somewhat objectionable. Simply because if you allow the spell caster to animate dead bodies like that, there is nothing (other than the DM's out of game word) stopping the spell caster from animating dead PCs in the middle of the combat.
Personally I feel if the material component and stated 'action' regarding it was ment to prevent it from being used in the middle of the fight they (WoTC) should have also made the casting time 1 minute.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(3/3/03 11:12 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
granted, but then again, unless you really hate the pc's, you won't put them through that...
it would be a way to get rid of a munchkin of course... no resurrection possible, make up a decent character this time
i love it!
note to self: remember this tactic 
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(3/3/03 11:48 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
Actually, I see that as a principle reason why Devils have it as a Spell-Like ability (often, At Will). It's a very effective psychological tactic to see your allies slain, then animated and sent after you.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Taxman66
Here for a while
(3/3/03 11:55 am)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
Before you go patting yourself on the back for such a great idea, remember a) Its a good way to provoke a player rebellion/mass quiting or at the very least invoke hard feelings; b) The PCs will, justifiably, wind up doing it to you (among pulling out every other possible stop leading to an escilation of who can 'cross the line'... We used to have an (very) old joke on how to stop (or significantly reduce) the reaccurance of baddies. It went like this: "Kill, animate, dust." All the more easier if you do it in the middle/end of the fight to keep the 'body' from being T-ported out by companions.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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Siobharek
Still here? Wow.
(3/3/03 12:07 pm)
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Re: Heading to the Old Temple tomorrow . . .
Quote:
Methinks that the suggestion wasn't raise, as in "raise dead", it was raise as in "animate dead".
What?! I now have to read prior posts as opposed to just skimming them?
Man, I feel stoopid. 
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
 Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(3/3/03 12:22 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Animate Dead
"it would be a way to get rid of a munchkin of course... no resurrection possible"
The PC cannot be true resurrected while his body is undead, but once you "kill" the zombie/skeleton, the PC can then be true resurrected, even after a good cleric blasts the walking corpse to dust. If the PC was that much of a munckin, they might decide to pay the heavy cost (i.e. lots of magic) for a true rez.
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benhamtroll
Here to stay
(3/3/03 8:32 pm)
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Re: Animate Dead
Thanks for the help guys. The temple was fun. I made a few mistakes, but it was still a challenge for them.
I especially liked it when the Dire Ape tore the barbarian in half. That thing is NASTY.
There's no business like gnoll business |
Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(3/4/03 7:44 am)
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Re: Animate Dead
I would say a lot depends, Taxman66, on the party in question. My players would find it disturbing and upsetting, and would realize that it limits their options (they can't just turn them into dust with the cleric), but they certainly wouldn't rebell or quit. A slain, animated, re-slain corpse is perfectly Resurrectable (or Cloneable)...no more viscious than any other method of killing that leaves a body unsuitable for Raise Dead (there's plenty out there, I tend to use -20 as a quick and dirty guideline).
If the party chooses to "poof" the former PC into dust with a turn attempt, they've brought the need for a True Res on themselves by their choice of how to dispose of it.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
smetzger
Here for a while
(3/4/03 7:56 am)
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Animate Dead
Taxman66, despite having to place an Onyx gem into a corpse, Animate Dead still only has a one action casting time.
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Taxman66
Here for a while
(3/4/03 10:49 am)
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Re: Animate Dead
I'm aware of that. My point was that it seemed to me that the idea of placing the gem was perhaps a limitation imposed to restrict the spell from being used in the middle of a fight. My observation was that if that was the case (it was intended as a restriction), it would have been better served to impose a 1 minute casting time since via the use of a scroll (or a wand or other item) voids the limitation.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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