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ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(3/4/03 9:31 am)
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Interesting Wat battle
I wanted to split this off from my log for my session last night to get since it has more techincal questions and might elicit comments. I'm second guessing some of my decisions and may tweak the XP award based on responses...

Finally, my party is pulling out the creative tactics that we use in most of our other campaigns. We had a neat battle with Wat last night. Surprisingly, only one of them succumbed to the horrific appearance, and he didn't have any magic weapons, so it didn't sway the battle much.

After Wat's first death attack, one of the players was delaying and had the amazing idea to disarm him after the next manifestation and attack. (I mentioned that the sword had a slightly less translucent appearance than Wat did. I'm not sure if that's why he decided to do it, but maybe...) Now, I'm not sure I would have let this have a chance at all, except that Wat has that GT sword, which technically has a presence in both planes. The player sucked up an AoO, won the disarm, and got past the incorporial 50% check (which I wasn't sure should be made for the disarm on the GT sword here--comments?). I had the sword fly out of his hands and stick in the floor next to him for dramatic effect. The paladin was delaying until the manifest as well and went right after the disarming. She walks over and picks it up and noticing its general high-quality, starts using it against Wat!

The battle raged on soon followed by the mage casting minor image to make four Badgers run in and threaten the area (I realize now that this should probably have only been one per the reading of silent image... comments?), giving Wat a host of new foes to go after. He failed Will saves horribly while studying and tried to DA one of them.

They then latched on to the ready an action (finally) after a few more surprise attacks and eventually dispatched him. I admit I did nerf the one successful death attack to a paralysis. My party is only 4th level, so I had been thinking when preparing that Wat would have more fun with a room full of paralyzed foes to kill, but I wasn't thinking about how short the paralysis lasts, so this was a bit silly in the end. I think I'm going to notch down the CR one for this (along with the probable overpowering of minor image above).

I know we hashed out the GT sword a bit a few weeks back, but I can't seem to find that topic for some reason. So here's a few random questions to muse about again...

* What do you think of this disarm idea for the GT weapon? Valid? Would you have kept the 50% miss chance if so?

* Does a GT weapon need to hit a corporeal foe's full AC? My reading of the DMG/SRD text is no, the ghost still gets to bypass armor.

* Manifestation, being a supernatural power is a standard action, since it's not specified otherwise in the description, right? I realized after the battle that I should have at least had Wat move (i.e. just fly up or down out of reach) after each Death Attack (that's not a full round action, right?) since some of the party were just delaying instead of readying against his manifestation. But, maybe that would have been wielding the tactics clue bat a little more than I already was ;)

Edit: BTW, for the interested, I opened a general question on figments on the Rules board here: pub58.ezboard.com/fokayyo...3976.topic


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Edited by: ZansForCans  at: 3/4/03 10:09:08 am
Taxman66
Here for a while
(3/4/03 10:44 am)
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Re: Interesting Wat battle
Comments, all my personel opinion and I don't have the rule books to validate:

1. Disarming Wat is a great idea.

2. Technically by strict reading of the rules I suppose disarming him would have to bypass the incoporeal check. However, IMO, since disarm is more of an 'attack' against the weapon and this weapon exists in the material world I would have voided the need to bypass the check (i.e. No 50% check).

3. Wat shouldn't get to bypass armor using the sword. That is because it is not his incoporeal touch attack, it is a different attack.

4. Delaying is in some ways a better option as it gives the PCs more choices (as opposed to a committed action in response to a specific action). If Wat moved they could have perhaps used missile/thrown weapons if they are delayed. If they have declared ready actions they might not have choosen a response that would 'work' against Wat. Albiet, a ready action could interfere (and possibly stop using disarm) a death attack.

5. I suggest keeping the CR unchanged, because the rulings in favor of Wat and in favor of the PCs are nearly enough a wash; and because disarming Wat is a really good idea.

Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin

ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(3/4/03 11:20 am)
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Re: Interesting Wat battle
Thanks for the great comments (as always), Taxman...

I agree in general about the delaying vs. readying. In their particular case though, they had no way of affecting him without melee (and they knew this pretty early on). For some reason, they don't yet have any ranged magic ammo (OK, it's pretty expensive ;) ). In the end, I'm glad they used both to good effect because we use these actions way too little in our group, and I think they end up making for much better tactical battles.


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Cordo Crowfoot
Here for a while
(3/4/03 5:28 pm)
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Re: Interesting Wat battle
I agree with Taxman everywhere except for #5. Changing the death attack to paralysis and having Wat target a minor image he probably wouldn't have with an important DA did weaken him quite a bit so I think it is very appropriate to lower his CR if you think you should do so.

"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station

ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(3/4/03 8:38 pm)
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Re: Interesting Wat battle
Whoops, I left that out of my own response somehow... I plan to keep the CR reduction for exactly those two points CC. They were rewarded for the disarming by getting to use the GT sword on Wat himself, probably reducing the length of the combat by quite a bit. I'd rather use the 1600 XP difference from 8->7 (APL 4) to dole out some much overdue RP awards.


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