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Comment
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Boden Blagden
Here for a while
(3/4/03 8:49 pm)
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The demonstone?
Have any of you rolled for your characters when it comes to saving throws. Especially when dealing with the demonstone. I know my players and as soon as they hear the word saving throw they will start looking around for the problem. They will first assume someone is attacking and when that isn't happening they will start checking their stuff, especially the stuff they just got. I guess this would be a question about metagaming also. They haven't come across it yet, but when they do if one of them has to make a saving throw that just puts up signs in the back of their mind that something is wrong. What would y'all do about that?
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Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(3/5/03 1:34 am)
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Re: The demonstone?
If you know you've got players like that, you'll probably have to stay on top of their saves and keep notes about it. I usually just ask for people's character sheets after making the roll.
Oh, and put a stop to the metagaming, already: In case of your crew, they wouldn't have a reason to go on red alert, so tell them to stuff it.
Just my opinion, of course, it just irks me when the Ghost of Meta enters a perfectly good gaming session.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(3/5/03 4:34 am)
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Re: The demonstone?
well, you could let them roll, but leave them in the dark just what they are rolling for...
at the start of the session, go around the table and memorize or write down (as i do) the player's saves...
then, at an innocent looking moment, ask the character in question for a roll of his D20 (he gets to roll, no 'blaming the dm for fudging afterwards) and add the will save modifier you wrote down to the roll... you'll know whether he saved or failed... but he won't and there might not be an investigation as to the cause of the roll... since they don't know what to look for 
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Boden Blagden
Here for a while
(3/5/03 6:10 am)
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Re: The demonstone?
I keep all of their stats including HPs, AC, Saving throws, Spot, listen, and search. The only things I don't keep is their attack bonus and how many spells they can cast. I think I will just make him roll a d20 at random. I might even have them all roll at odd times just to get them confused.
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Taxman66
Here for a while
(3/5/03 6:30 am)
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Re: The demonstone?
Just to be a devil's advocate (yuk, yuk), I don't see anything in the demonstone's description that indicates the character wouldn't feel the 'tingle' of a unsuccessful mental attack (i.e. a successful saving throw); But opinions vary with those who believe the 'tingle' only applies to spells.
Secondly if DM'd propperly this item shouldn't be the major screw-over that some portray it. I mean come on it is described as a dark rock in shape of a demonic creature. It whispers (and if you listen it tells you to do horrible things). It semi-animate(?) in that the 'center seems to move'. It radiates magic (see the definition of 'minor artifact' in the DMG), and by all that is fair it should radiate evil as well.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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smetzger
Here for a while
(3/5/03 7:20 am)
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Listen check
You could pepper the guy with Listen checks for the Stones whispers, this should make him nice and paranoid, then secretly replace one of his Listen checks with a Will save. 
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Killiak 
Here for a while
(3/5/03 7:33 am)
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Re: Listen check
No no no Taxman! it's a cursed item, it is not SUPPOSED to be fair! It's a nasty lil bitch who will try and corrupt the person in possession of it. Kind of like Sauron's Ring ya know.
As for listen checks; its telepathic
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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(3/5/03 7:43 am)
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Re: Listen check
"You could pepper the guy with Listen checks for the Stones whispers"
i agree with killian, it's a voice you'll hear inside your head... not audible by everyone nearby
and yeah, it's cursed, but it might still radiate some faint evil... if a paladin or another character with detect evil uses his ability on it.. then he deserves to know its real purpose, and dispose of it!
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Taxman66
Here for a while
(3/5/03 7:52 am)
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Re: Listen check
I can understand the desire to make the whispers mental, but reading of the text indicates to me that they are audible.
I agree that the 'item' is not fair. However, I feel that the DM running it should be. The item is also not 'cursed' it is a minor artifact.
I stand by my opinion, it radiates magic, it radiates evil, it looks like a demon, it moves in a fashion, and it suggests horrible actions; and if you don't allow the PC(s) access to the clues you are not being fair.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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Killiak
Here for a while
(3/5/03 8:23 am)
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Re: Listen check
Quote:
I stand by my opinion, it radiates magic, it radiates evil, it looks like a demon, it moves in a fashion, and it suggests horrible actions; and if you don't allow the PC(s) access to the clues you are not being fair
DING DONG!!! HELLOO!!!!???? Are the moving and the looks not enough? It won't radiate evil because it won't give itself away! And yes; it is CURSED. It makes you hurt your friends, commit heinous acts of unspeakable evil if it can, but yet it appears to be a luckstone! How the HELL can that NOT be cursed? And as you pointd out; it is a minor artifact. ARTIFACT; power right there
Edited by: Killiak at: 3/5/03 8:23:26 am
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 Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(3/5/03 8:32 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Listen check
Killiak, lighten up, Taxman was offering his opinion, no need to be so offensive.
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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(3/5/03 8:51 am)
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Re: Listen check
true, to every man his opinion, no need to flame each other over opinions...
besides, avery dm can use the demonstone as he or she pleases... radiating evil, whispering aloud, you name it...
this forum is intended to help each other by offering different views on different topics... let's keep it the way 
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Killiak
Here for a while
(3/5/03 9:47 am)
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Re: Listen check
pfft. That wasn't a flame, if I did a proper one, then I would be banned fro mthese boards
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Taxman66
Here for a while
(3/5/03 10:27 am)
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Re: Listen check
Quote:
DING DONG!!! HELLOO!!!!???? Are the moving and the looks not enough? It won't radiate evil because it won't give itself away! And yes; it is CURSED. It makes you hurt your friends, commit heinous acts of unspeakable evil if it can, but yet it appears to be a luckstone! How the HELL can that NOT be cursed? And as you pointd out; it is a minor artifact. ARTIFACT; power right there
I still disagree.
1.
Nothing indicates that its being evil is hidden. 'It won't give itself away'... the item is not intelligent (it has no mental stats), although the whispering does seem to imply such. I prefer to think of it more along the lines of either a communication link to a demonic intelligence; or some type of amplifier to one's own occasional selfish/dark thoughts (although in that case I could see a 'telepathic' whisper, but I'd also see different DCs for differing starting alingments).
2.
It's a minor artifact. The definition of such is:
"Minor artifacts are not necessarily unique items, instead, they are magic items that no longer can be made, at least by common mortal means.
3.
It's not listed as a cursed item it is listed as a minor artifact. Granted this is open to debate and is mostly a semantic arguement that doesn't effect point 1 or 2.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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Killiak
Here for a while
(3/5/03 3:50 pm)
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Re: Listen check
It's not intelligent, correct. But it is an item of demonic power. If you would like to seduce someone, would you show your true colors? I see the succubus example here.....
This item can no longer be made by any mortal means. Now we look at the most pwerfull items any mortal can make. Well now; this item is pretty friggin' strong then!
Identify only reveals it's most simplest of powers, in this case the luckstone bit. I don't think a simple spell like detect evil is going to give it's greatest power away.
COME ON, be reasonable here! There are times when being a FAIR DM means being nasty. This item is nasty, it's supposed to be nasty and it has to be played as such. If you going to give it away, then you might as well give the players the full info in the cult, the doomdreamers, Imix and Tharizdun when they question Chatrilon.......... puuleaze
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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(3/5/03 4:00 pm)
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Re: Listen check
guys guys... to every man his own opinion
taxman66 is going to play it the way he likes, and kiliak plays it his way... simple isn't it
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benhamtroll
Here to stay
(3/5/03 4:07 pm)
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Re: Listen check
Maybe Killiak has the demonstone . . .
This may have been asked before, but would the stone affect someone if carried in a Heward's Handy Haversack?
There's no business like gnoll business |
The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(3/5/03 4:22 pm)
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Re: Listen check
it has been discussed here, and i think the consensus was that it did influence the carrier of the bag... it will even work when placed within a bag of holding (therefor we agreed that the whispers where telepathic, since the thing would have to be screaming its lungs out if it had to be heard from another plane )
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Boden Blagden
Here for a while
(3/5/03 5:07 pm)
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Re: Listen check
Well there is no Paladin in my party, and I have never seen them use a detect evil on anything yet. The party consists of:
Human Wizard 8
Human Fighter 7
Human Cleric 8
Elf Barbarian 3/Sorceror 5
Elf Rogue 7
Human Sorceror 7
The rogue has been trying to pickup certain treasure items without the group seeing. He has almost gotten caught doing this once. I have a feeling he might try to do this when he sees the demonstone.
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Killiak
Here for a while
(3/5/03 6:11 pm)
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Re: Listen check
Well, the rogue is the perfect subject. If he feels the need to hide things from his comrades then he is pretty easy to convert. Start off with minor things;
-Don't help him now! U might get hurt!
-U found the money, it's yours!
U can move on from that with just a tad bit nastier;
-Screw him over, the rest will hate him and when he laves, U will take his share
After that its pretty much open season;
-Make him go there to die; his possesion's will be yours!
Pretty much nasty stuff if he continues to hide it all from the party. NE OR LE will work best
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Taxman66
Here for a while
(3/5/03 7:28 pm)
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Re: Listen check
There certainly was not a consensous that the stone effected the carrier when it was in an extra dimensional space.
Again I reitterate that the stone is clearly evil. The stone clearly has nothing in its description that prevents it from showing up as being evil. I do agree that the alignment change ability would not show up with an identify.
The DM, of course, has the right to change or interprete any thing he so desires. I think doing so as Killiack suggests makes it inappropriatly difficult challange. Your mileage may very.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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