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Aluvial
Here for a while
(3/5/03 11:30 am)
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Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
I'm wondering if I can get some help or ideas. My group of 7 has reached 9th level. They started at the south door and have made their way clockwise through and have destroted everything in thier path and are approaching the main door complex.
For brief reminder that is the
South door complex
The Air Temple
The orcs (I used the psionic lich/shocker idea from Best of)
The Fire door
The Dragon and other creatures....
They have alerted the guards as they approached and I set it up so that there was a bell that could be rung.
It's ringing...
What should I do?
I could play it as written but I want it to be a challenge. They have also been in the temple complex for 8 days now.
After they take the main door down and the Earth temple which isn't far behind what sort of response is the outer fane leaders going to have? The assassins?
Also the spy from the water temple Area 28, 29? has seen them and escaped. What next?
I'm afraid that the long dungeon crawl is startig to become taxing... The party has the air keys but doesn't have a clue about what they are. All this and they're only a little over 1/3rd away around the ring!
I need something with some punch if this adventure is going to go well...
Any suggestions?
Aluvial
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Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(3/5/03 11:54 am)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
First of all, if you have any comments to the lich/shocker part, I'd really love to have them (either here or mail me at s dot thustrup at tiscali dot net), as I'll be running my crew through that encounter in 2˝ weeks.
Second, the bell has rung, and you really have to roll with that by now. After the massacre, sorry battle, have Moolowik the Spy approach them and offer them the glory of helping the temple of Water against the demons of fire. If the players bite, which they might, if the thing is getting too much of a dungeon crawl, have Kelashein talk (a little) too much about the keys. Have them witness a ceremony or something where they see the keys.
Provided the players go along, the Temple of Water is the place to go for some good rp'ing
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Aluvial
Looking around
(3/5/03 12:22 pm)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
The lich shocker thing went very well. I really liked it, especially since we use psionics in the game... (I have one Fighter/Psy War).
DAMN BIOFEEDBACK!!!!
I really liked the use of the plates and the half negative/half electrical energy...
I had the Black pudding be the source of the power... Acid between two metals... You did that right? And put a second pudding on the top of the lich's tower.... The gnome was sweet, he really did a ton of damage to the group, and somehow I managed to wrack up some damage with a blade barrier...
The lich was strong and after defeating one corperal form outside of the tower, I had him move to the form of an undead giant snake! It was pretty sweet... They new something was up when they didn't get experience for him when I handed it out... I let them metagame that only because I wanted a second crack at them.
By the way, ectogoo works like a charm! Just trap someone to the metal plates and just watch the damage tick off, round by round... I loved it!
Good job with this, you can mail me at aluvial at carolina dot rr dot com if you want to discuss it further!
Thanks for your ideas.
Aluvail
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Aluvial
Looking around
(3/5/03 12:27 pm)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
I'm wondering about time frames too?
Wouldn't the leaders at least come over and take inspections and such?
How long would the south door remain unattended?
I would figure that the Fire Temple folks would exclusively use that door to move in and out of the CRM. Certainly they have expanded some in spite of the Water door?
At some point the Outer Fane is going to at least put a bounty on the PC's heads...
What to do, what to do....
Aluvial
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Zenon
Here for a while
(3/6/03 6:49 am)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
You have a couple of choices to clue them in about the nature of the temples and the keys:
1) Prisoners talking: If your party takes any prisoners, you can use them to give the party tidbits of info.
2) Journal & notes: I used the mad rambling of Fachish in the Air Temple to reveal alot of info. My PC's hit the Earth Temple first, then the Air Temple. Fachish's rambling included things like having to bribe and/or pay his way around the CRM rim to use his Air Bridge, having to pay off Oomarthis(sp) to use the bridge, divisions within his own temple and his dreams of seeing the Air Temple as the most powerful after his contact with the Elemental Prince of Air. You could do similar things with any of the temples.
3) Varachan: After my PC's hit the Earth Temple and blasted it to the ground, they withdrew. Word reached Varachan about this after a supply drop, and Varachan prepared and hid a note to the PC's behind a rock roughly shaped like the party clerics holy symbol for them to find. The note included info like warnings on which temples were most powerful and how to use the keys to form greater and master keys.
If you use combinations of the above (or others I haven't included), your PC's should start being able to get a picture of how things work in the CRM.
Good luck!
Edited by: Zenon at: 3/6/03 6:50:36 am
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Trithereon
Here quite a while
(3/6/03 7:33 am)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
There are certain tactical problems within the CRM that impose limitations to the Fire Temple using any entrance.
The region between the South Entrance and the Fire Temple is frought with peril. For any low level guards to survive the destrachan they must must move in large groups and perhaps have some magical assistance. The Destrachan Sphere (CRM 101) forces ground troops moving through the sphere to climb down twenty feet and then climb back up twent feet to the other side, leaving them vulnerable to attack. That twenty foot drop probably means there aren't many wagons moving between the South Entrance and the Fire Temple.
The other direction means dealing with the Earth Bridge Complex. But really, the guards at CRM133-134 don't even question those dressed in Temple garb. A visitor to the Fire Temple or supplies can flown (by magic or spider-eaters) right to the end of the Earth Bridge and moved directly to the Fire Temple without question as long as everyone is dressed in Temple garb.
IMC, that is exactly what happens for most supplies and vistors for the the Fire Temple and Earth Bridge Complex. They arrive at the South Entrance are questioned and/or harrassed by Fachich or by Kelial (they may try to extort the best of the supplies, weasle bribes or other kick backs) if they thinks he can get away with it. Legitamite visitors (or even illegitamite visitors with successful Bluff checks) are likely blessed by Fachich (or Choranth). The Spider-eater Ridges (SER) are then signaled from the ledge (CRM 76) and the supplies/vistors are then flown to the Earth Bridge.
Visitors and supplies for the Earth Temple can go through the Main Entrance fairly easily because of Terrenygit. However, because of the open hostility between the Air Bridge Complex and the Earth Temple I don't suspect many visitors or supplies get past the Earth Temple. Hence, the low traffic. The Air Bridge could also be supplied by the SER. The Fire Bridge Complex likewise has problems with supply lines because of ettins, dragons, orcs and hydras and could be supplied by the SER. Any visitors or supplies to the Water Temple can be moved from the boat landing (CRM 91) but likely still have to deal with Fachich or Kelial first.
The supply lines of the CRM are all messed up! Its insane! But then again, so are the doomdreamers.
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(3/6/03 7:51 am)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
Methinks it's in the FAQ or the BoB, but my suggestion for the Fire Temple supply line is this:
A group of warriors accompanied by a 3rd or higher level Cleric comes in the south gate and hangs a right. The Cloakers aren't going to mess with a group that size, especially when they know the symbols they wear (they've been burned before messing with the fire temple).
As the group approaches the Destrachan area, the cleric casts Silence around himself, and the others stay in close proximity.
The Destrechans have dealt with silence before, and know it turns them into confused creatures with weak claw attacks. They back off, and let the Fire forces through.
From there, it's a swift march past the druid and the ants, and they're home free.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Trithereon
Here quite a while
(3/6/03 9:36 am)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
Yeah, true.
However, none of the Temple forces shown in the random encounter charts has a cleric. I assume that there's a fairly equal chance of encountering a Fire Temple Raiders as that of Water Temple Raiders, as all are in need of sacrifices. What then? A Fire Temple raiding party returning from the wilderness with sacrifices needs to get a message to a Fire Temple for them to send a cleric? Or maybe entice Fachich to cast Silence spells on stones, or coins? You'd better have two Silence spells ready because there's that 20-foot climb down which takes you out of the 15-foot radius of the spell's area of effect. Then you have to carry all the supplies on your back because your not getting a wagon or cart through the sphere room easily, if at all.
I didn't mean to imply that its impossible. Just difficult.
More difficult then getting a lift from the SER? I don't know. I suppose if you have a spellcaster to cast a couple Silence spells and you don't have a wagon load of foodstuff to carry then the Silence trick is easier. I wonder, does Fachich warn visitors to the Fire Temple about the destrachan?
I was trying to point out that the entire CRM is riddled with supply line problems, to which SER seemed a universal solution. Otherwise, you have to come up with unique solutions to the Fire Bridge, Air Bridge, Earth Bridge Earth Temple and Water Temple supply line problems. Obviously, some have an easy solution (Earth Temple) but others are more difficult (Air Bridge).
I suppose I worry about these things too much.
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(3/6/03 9:58 am)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
I just added a 3rd level cleric to the aforementioned patrol.
As for the others....
Fire Bridge: Worst of the lot. SER is the best answer here, or assume that the Ettin/Dragon moveins are a recent development, and that the normal supply line was just recently cut off.
Air Bridge: No problems here. It's a straight, clean shot through the west gate, earth temple, take the right-hand path right past the Athach.
Earth Bridge: Follow aforementioned Fire Temple route.
Earth Temple: Right through west gate...don't see a problem here at all.
Water Temple: Second most difficult behind the Fire Bridge Complex. My recommendation here is to send supplies through the Water "Bridge" Complex.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Aluvial
Looking around
(3/6/03 10:07 am)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
Supply lines aside....
What do you do when a third of the CRM is destroyed and your party of 7, 9th level characters is going around the weak side?
I started my fight at the door last night. I bumped up the gnolls to warrior 1's and the humans to warrior 3's. This at least gave them a few extra hit points to chop through...
(By the way, what are the CR's for a warrior?)
I found that the howler is too big for the area with a hoard of fighters/zombies/leaders milling around. I can't even get the thing down the hallway past its own troops. I figure the thing would just claw at anything that got near it anyway, but I haven't done that.
As for the rest, I think that I'm going to start overcompensating for the rest of the adventure to make it interesting. Otherwise the whole thing isn't a challenge.
Any suggestions? How about for the Earth Temple?
Aluvial
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(3/6/03 10:15 am)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
As I've said countless times in the past, DON'T compensate. Let them have their hew-through gory glory. They've worked for it, they've earned it. Heck, let word get 'round and have the weaker dweebs just outright FLEE from them.
If your PCs are past the point where these guys are a challenge, they're close to being ready to move on to other things anyways. Skip the intermission, move on to Act II. IMC, the Water Temple was completely abandoned by the time the PCs reached it.
If you DO compensate, the XP they'll gain from being continuously "challenged" will cause them to be higher level than otherwise, which will mean you'll have to "compensate" in the Outer Fane, the Recovered Temple...before long, you're rewriting the whole %)*^#)% module! Don't go there! Let them have their fame and glory, get complacent, then smack them with Hedrack's little "presents" when two temples are down and out.
Oh...and to answer your question, the CR for a Warrior, or any other NPC class, is 1 less than if it were of a PC class, unless it's only 1 level, then it's 1/2. A War 1 human is CR 1/2. A War 2 human is CR 1. A War 5 is CR 4.
Don't split hairs here. A Gnoll War 1 would be CR 2 (Gnoll 1 + 1 for the War level). Basically, it's one less than it would be for a Fighter, unless that would be worth "nothing".
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Aluvial
Looking around
(3/6/03 10:32 am)
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
You are right about fleeing...
Hmm, never actually thought of that...
I just felt that once both main entrances were compromised the fire temple might take on the destra... sonic nasties, and move into the vacuum that the party has created behind it.
As for reinforcements, going back counter-clockwise from the door, there is the water door, then caverns, then the fire temple. Those are the only organized leaders that would go and "recruit" new orcs,beasts...
I have the idea that the fire denizens would kill the two sonic nasties, then take the water door and collapse it, and then gain control of the south door. Until then there are no guards to stop any outside force.
Also, how long before the air or earth doors discover that their temples are destroyed? For the air temple it's been easily over a week of game time. Certainly they've sent someone over to check it out by now.
And then there is the race for control aspect between the various temple factions... Who want's control of the south door more? Obviously in their derangement the clerics of the CRM are going to take the opportunity to please the masters by securing the door.
Anyway, just some thoughts and ramblings....
Aluvial
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Kenmis
Here for a while
(3/6/03 11:22 am)
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Clearing the CRM
Don't forget (it's only mentioned once) if 2 of the temples are taken out, the CRM is abandoned (temporarily, i would guess) and the clerics all flee.
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Aluvial
Looking around
(3/6/03 11:41 am)
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Re: Clearing the CRM
I have a problem with this... if you go after the two weakest temples and defeat them then they rest just up and go?
Doesn't make sense. They have to much going for them if the other temples get disbanded. Maybe the respective door guards flee, but I', not sure of that even. I think they would "have to see it for themselves."
Perhaps the clerics of destroyed temples flee if they have the chance, but I see the guards going to where the power lies, or at least to whomever gives them the most money if they manage to escape.
My group is going to have to destroy two of the four temples for the Outer Fane to notice. They only have the air keys anyway, and have no idea how to use them so there is little chance they will get inside the Outer Fane any time soon. As for the earth temple coming up, I'm not going to enhance them any, but I am going to have them thouroughly prepared for the PC's arrival.
My group is going to rest as soon as the clear the main door group and then I'm thinking about an ambush from the Earth Temple folks. I can't wait. Need to kill one of my cocky PC's off anyway... Im fact, it's going to happen on his watch...
Aluvial
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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(3/6/03 11:47 am)
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Re: Clearing the CRM
really?
so if the two weaker temples are sacked, say earth and air... then the two others are abandoned?
seems odd...
i'm not gonna apply that rule, but i do apply andorax's system... all the lvl 1 warriors and other fodder flee before the PCs... unless in the presence of a 'superior' where they remain a few rounds and soak some damage... then they get to try a will save or break and flee... regardless of the superior...
the PCs love it whenseveral warriors break and flee in front of them... shows them they're becoming more powerful... which is rewarding!
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(3/6/03 12:04 pm)
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Re: Clearing the CRM
What seems odd about it, The guy from Belgium?
If one temple is destroyed, that's business as usual. It could be someone else's plot, or something else going on, but it's not a cause for concern.
However, if two temples go down, in fairly short succession, then either it's the one remaining temple's work (in which case they're more powerful than expected, and you're next) or else it's the work of outsiders (who, if they can mow down two temples, may not be able to completely take you out, but then again, they might). Either way, it's a good reason for the remaining two temples to look at relocating operations to a safer site.
Do you have to follow this rule? Not really. There's some fudge factor for timeframe until the other temples "discover" what happened, and if it is the least two temples (Earth and Air), the Fire and Water temples may just tough it out.
But especially if one of the bigger two goes down, like say the Air and Fire temples, then the Earth temple is likely to be running scared, and the Water temple will know full well that there's something out there bigger and meaner than they are, and consider carefully their options.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" Edited by: Andorax at: 3/6/03 12:06:43 pm
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blakwind
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(3/6/03 12:15 pm)
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Re: Clearing the CRM
Quote:
Don't forget (it's only mentioned once) if 2 of the temples are taken out, the CRM is abandoned (temporarily, i would guess) and the clerics all flee.
Can anyone provide a page number for this reference? I've not noticed this remark in the module text.
Thanks
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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(3/6/03 12:21 pm)
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Re: Clearing the CRM
ok, first of all, this is kind of obsolete in my campaign, as my party has made a trip to vverbobonc and hommlet and in total, it has been three weeks since they whacked their first temple (air)... they are now going after the second one, earth, since Kellial told them it was also very weak.
If they manage to wipe that one out as well, then only fire and water will remain. these are the two bad boys of the CRM, and i presume they're a bit more of a challenge than earth and air.
If earth goes down as fast as i presume it will (party = average lvl 8/9 now, and i do not boost encounters), the remaining temples will know about this and take precautions, setting up more guards, etc...
the thing is, if i do follow the "2 down, rest relocates" suggestion, then where do the clerics and the mooks flee towards? they can't go knocking on the OF doors (well, perhaps the more important clerics could) so where do they go?
as i said, the lvl 1 warriors and standard guards get discouraged pretty quickly as they can't touch my party... this has led to great roleplay by my paladin, who can't just kill them after they surrendered... they're mostly stripped and sent off to 'a better life"
the tougher enenmies (tessimon, eeridik and such) will put up decent fight, partly because they're arrogant enough to at least try and part because they might win and get some kind of favor from the OF...
that's how i see it...
destruction of multiple temples won't cause a mass evac from the other temples, unless of course, as you say andorax, fire and water are wiped out... earth is still recovering from the last blow... and air isn't much of a challenge (except for the nasty air elemental, which rocks!)
P.
btw, call me Philip, it's easier than 'the guy from belgium' 
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 Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(3/6/03 12:44 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Approaching Main Door Structure Question?
"A War 1 human is CR 1/2"
Except in this module, where the War1's are CR 1 because of the excess equipment. I looked at that while reviewing the module for errata, and the War1's are way overstocked with masterwork items and a potion; and the CR 1 seems to justify it accordingly.
Just thought I'd mention it.
"Don't forget (it's only mentioned once) if 2 of the temples are taken out, the CRM is abandoned (temporarily, i would guess) and the clerics all flee."
I don't remember reading that! Are you sure you're not thinking about Hedrack's response? How could everyone in the CRM flee at the same time Hedrack is sending in assassin's to deal with the problem? It might say three temples, but not 2. Please provide the page number reference.
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Zenon
Here for a while
(3/6/03 12:51 pm)
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Re: Clearing the CRM
Quote:
so where do they go?
IMC, the PC started by taking out the Earth Temple. They progresses to the wide lake between Earth and Air, then turned around and went the other way, clearing all the way through to the Air Temple and a little beyond, bypassing the Fire Bridge (over many sessions). Then they headed back to Verbobonc on one of their supply runs.
Using the advice of the module (sorry, I don't have the page number for the "when 2 are destroyed, the others are abandoned" reference), I their absence many things happened. The OF noticed 2 temples down and began some serious investingating (scrying, etc). The Water temple jumped the Fire temple to try to gain complete dominance of the CRM (and thus become the favorite of the DD's), but failed and got their butts kicked up between their ears, wiped out like Water did to Earth in the flavor text. The remaining Water members fled.
This took a toll on the Fire Temple - I only kept a few of the named NPC's (The high priestess, Zert, the blackguard salamander) and they proclaimed themselves to the OF as the mightiest of the temples.
As a reward, Hedrack sent them to oversee excavation of the Old Temple, as the Champion had been found.
Very nice, flows with the plot.
You have to look at the PC's XP levels. Defeating 2 temples and what's inbetween them SHOULD give them enough XP to try the OF. If they take on all 4 temples, they might be beyond recommended levels. Is that wrong? No, but you have to judge it for your own game.
BTW, I also had it in my mind that the remaining temple element would have the honor of summoning their Elemental Prince first (luckily in my case it worked out well, Fire was the victor and Imix has been summoned). It could throw a wrench in the plans of any PC who has "glanced through" the module to change the Prince to the strongest surviving element of the CRM struggle....
Edited by: Zenon at: 3/6/03 1:08:45 pm
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Infiniti2000
Here quite a while
(3/6/03 12:59 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Clearing the CRM
"It could through a wrench in the plans of any PC who has "glanced through" the module to change the Prince to the strongest surviving element of the CRM struggle...."
If I ever noticed that IMC it would the wrench I shove up his
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