Any advice for a novice DM feeling in over his head?

Okay -- Your Turn > Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil > Any advice for a novice DM feeling in over his head?
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benhamtroll Here to stay (3/16/03 9:29 am) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem geemarcus - Don't feel bad. I completely forgot about the wagon in Hommlet, and left out a few other things, and didn't use the NPC's other than Chat. I haven't made it to the CRM, but the gate area freaks me out as a DM. It's a very involved battle with a lot of bad guys coming from a lot of different areas at different times to do different things. Like you, I am a relatively unexperienced DM (except for the lame 2ed stuff . . .), but we've been having fun. The guy who normally DMs is in the group, and with his encyclopedic knowledge of the rules he helps me out of any scrapes. One thing that I found that helps me is to not pretend like I know everything. I ask players to explain what they are doing, or to look up the specific rules for something they are trying that I'm not familiar with, or I just toss a question to our specialist. When all else fails, though, I just make it up. As long as they are having fun, don't sweat it. I killed our new guy the other day with the dire ape in the ruined temple, but it was still fun for all. They moppped up the rest of the temple without much trouble and it was STILL fun for all. There's no business like gnoll business
Infiniti2000 Still here? Wow. (3/16/03 10:28 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: I need a post-mortem benhamtroll, make sure you check out the reaction chain that is on the BotB or the ones that Andorax and I wrote up. We'll (or I'll) try to do some more for temples and bridge complexes, but it should help you out if you have trouble with huge encounters like that. Feel free to post questions in that thread or offer comments. Eventually, I'll put a Word document on ZFC's site so that it is more accessible.
benhamtroll Here to stay (3/16/03 1:21 pm) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem Thanks. I was actually going to use that to help flesh out my prep for tomorrow. They'll just be arriving in Rastor, so depending on how long that takes them, they may ONLY make it as far as the main gate (assuming the go to the main gate. I may have to push a bit . . .) There's no business like gnoll business
geemarcus Looking around (3/17/03 7:44 am) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem Thanks all for your advice and encouragement. Zenon mentioned a few things I can respond to: *Quote:* 3) "They're a mix/max group" There's a couple of things you can do here. I didn't see you mention what level they all are or how many total the party is: It's a 5 member party, and they were 5th level for this encounter (now 6th). Your ideas for increasing the APL are great. I'll do this by 1 for the 5th party member, not sure if enough of them are min/maxy enough to justify another. This reminds me of something else that was bugging me. They took out over 50 CR1's, for 15K xps. Am I being reasonable to think that this is a little unreasonable? They really had nothing to fear from these things. If it is unreasonable, what is reasonable, half? Even that's a lot. As for more details on the PCs, if people would be interested I'll start a campaign log here and include them. *Quote:* -HP: Instead of going by the book HP for the creatures and NPC, max out their HP's. This may enable them to stand a little while longer against the PC's. Already doing this. *Quote:* -NPC buffing: Don't forget to have your NPC clerics buff before combat. IIRC, Terrenygit's AC can reach something like 29 or so with spells. In the future, if the NPCs have time to prepare, I'll do this no doubt. As it was, Terrenygit didn't get to the battle until round 4, and it was all over 3 rounds later... *Quote:* 5) "Attack-Rest-Attack-Rest" I'm curious to see how they handle this. So far I've been pretty amazed at how much they're able to do without resting. We'll see what happens. *Quote:* Is this what you're looking for? Absolutely. Mainly I was afraid I'd played the Howler and NPCs ineffectively. I'm more concerned that I'll do this with the spellcasters (pretty certain, actually), so your advice regarding tactics at the Earth Temple was valuable. It just seemed to me that this encounter should have given them more trouble, and it must follow that I was doing something wrong. From what you've said, it seems like maybe I did about the best I could in the situation. Thanks again! "Greed is for amateurs. Disorder, chaos, anarchy: now that's fun!"
Siobharek Still here? Wow. (3/17/03 12:39 pm) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem *Quote:* They took out over 50 CR1's, for 15K xps. Am I being reasonable to think that this is a little unreasonable? They really had nothing to fear from these things. If it is unreasonable, what is reasonable, half? Even that's a lot. Check p. 167 in the DMG: Modifying Encounter Levels. There's a little help there. What I find more important is the fact that it should, on average take 13.33 matched encounters to raise a character a level. So your gang should take on 13 CR 5 monsters (1 at a time) before leveling. Now, if you find that your PCs start soaring towards the lower teens, level-wise (as I have), you need to rethink your xp awards, because otherwise, the CRM will go from Lovecraft to lala-land in no time. Oh, and the Main Entrance is geared for a 4-man level 5 group. Yours is a little tougher, so naturally they made it with less casualties. But make sure to create power-up suites for every spell caster: Such as: "Uskathoth: Rd 1 - Endurance (+3 Con = +16 hp, Fort +11, Conc. +9 - 6 hrs); Rd 2 - Magic Vestment (+2 Armour Bonus - 6 hrs.); Rd 3 - Bull's Strength (+4 Str = +2 Atk/Dmg - 6 hrs.); Rd 4 - Aid (+4 hp, +1 Atk - 60 rds); Shield of Faith (+3 AC [deflection] - 60 rds); Rd 5 (just before melee) - Magic Weapon (+1 Atk/Dmg w. Moring Star). Boosted Stats: hp 73; AC 32 (touch 14, flat-footed 31); Atk +11 melee (1d8+5, mwk MS w. MW) and +8 melee (1d4+2, bite), or +8 ranged (1d6+4, javelin); Fort +11; Concentration +8" It's a daunting task, but you'll get to know so much more about your NPCs that way. Siobharek ...it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
geemarcus Looking around (3/17/03 1:33 pm) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem *Quote:* But make sure to create power-up suites for every spell caster: Such as: "Uskathoth: Rd 1 - Endurance (+3 Con = +16 hp, Fort +11, Conc. +9 - 6 hrs); Rd 2 - Magic Vestment (+2 Armour Bonus - 6 hrs.); Rd 3 - Bull's Strength (+4 Str = +2 Atk/Dmg - 6 hrs.); Rd 4 - Aid (+4 hp, +1 Atk - 60 rds); Shield of Faith (+3 AC [deflection] - 60 rds); Rd 5 (just before melee) - Magic Weapon (+1 Atk/Dmg w. Moring Star). Boosted Stats: hp 73; AC 32 (touch 14, flat-footed 31); Atk +11 melee (1d8+5, mwk MS w. MW) and +8 melee (1d4+2, bite), or +8 ranged (1d6+4, javelin); Fort +11; Concentration +8" I've done a fair amount of this stuff, for at least a few rounds, but you know what they say about "the best laid plans..." You seem to imply that the NPC has 5 rounds before going into melee to accomplish this stuff. Where do these come from? Certainly, if the PCs are being ambushed or attacked that's an option. What about in other cases? Should I assume that the buff spells with 1 hour increment durations are cast every day? Would you make this dependent on the level of security as outlined in the module? I'm glad you brought this up because this is the kind of stuff I've been trying to figure out how to accomplish better. Maybe I just need to re-read the DMG. Sorry if my questions are lame, discussed-to-death, or just plain annoying. Thanks "Stupidity is the basic building block of the Universe." --Frank Zappa
Siobharek Still here? Wow. (3/17/03 11:33 pm) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem *Quote:* You seem to imply that the NPC has 5 rounds before going into melee to accomplish this stuff. Where do these come from? Well, as you have experienced, they aren't always available . Which is why you should, IMHO, aim for the most efficient boost spells first. Later on, when rumours of a grand force tearing through the mines (that would be your PCs) begin reaching the various power centres in the mines, you might want to give the defenders some sort of warning system, or at least have them respond as efficiently as possible. But no, most of the time the NPCs do not have those five rounds, in which case I sometimes cheat a little. My players don't think to ask, "How many spells does this guy have on him? He must have had oh, at least 5 rounds to buff himself up. But we attacked like, 2 rounds ago?" So I don't tell. Basically, it's giving my guys a little break and my sorcerer a chance to shine with her dispel magic. And for the record, your questions are not, again IMHO, "lame, discussed-to-death, or just plain annoying" Siobharek ...it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
geemarcus Looking around (3/18/03 5:57 am) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem *Quote:* I sometimes cheat a little. Ah-ha! Thank you! I'd considered doing this but felt a little guilty about it. No more guilt! *Quote:* And for the record, your questions are not, again IMHO, "lame, discussed-to-death, or just plain annoying" Thanks. Geemarcus ______________________________________________________ "Stupidity is the basic building block of the Universe." --Frank Zappa
Taxman66 Here for a while (3/18/03 6:07 am) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem You should feel guilty about it. :P I personally hate DMs that do that. Have them set their defenses better, or walk around with a few body guards. Particularly as rumors are bound to fly that 'hits' are starting to occur more frequently, even if they don't know the 'who' or 'why'. Another option is to retreat, letting some mooks take it on the chin, and come back a minute or two later. Have the NPCs hold some fodder back for their counterattack. Taxman "It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
Siobharek Still here? Wow. (3/18/03 6:23 am) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem Yup, that's another, equally valid, approach. However, sometimes the cleric needs to get there ASAP, and then a spell or two more than there's strictly time for is OK. And no, I don't roll my attacks in the open, and if the monster has a cool attack (say, swallow whole) then it sometimes hits when it shouldn't (gasp!). Siobharek ...it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
Infiniti2000 Still here? Wow. (3/18/03 6:46 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: I need a post-mortem Don't feel guilty about it. As a DM you need to run lots of bad guys at the same time while the PC's only run one character each. They have the advantage. It's only fair that you cheat a little, but only enough such that it makes it more fun for everyone. If the players keep wading through all the BBEG's without breaking a sweat, and only because you forgot a detail or two, 'fudge' a little.
Urban Damage Looking around (3/18/03 10:21 am) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem GM - I'm in the same boat as you, new poster, however I am a long time lurker and DM. I'm posting because I disagree with some of the last few posts. As a DM there is one thing I can't stand; cheating. I usually ask a player I catch cheating to leave the group. Through the years this has left me with a very honest group of gentlemen, and we have been playing the game for many years. These gents are a terror to DM for, they regularly trash encounter after encounter with teamwork and skill. Now I have killed my fair share of them time to time however most of these occurr due to player error. I've even had a TPK or two . One thing I never do to my players is cheat them. I don't cheat on die rolls, on buffs, on numbers, on anything. It really doesn't make any sense. If I wanted to hammer them at any time I could, in a heartbeat, they are well aware of that. What's the point to cheating against them? I rather use my NPCs to the best of their ability and let the dice tell the story, good or bad. Remember this isn't you vs. your mates, this is you telling their story. You have a very well written and challenging module at your fingertips. Play it straight and everyone will have a good time.
Taxman66 Here for a while (3/18/03 10:28 am) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem Amen. My point exactly. Taxman "It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
Infiniti2000 Still here? Wow. (3/18/03 11:01 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: I need a post-mortem That's a fair statement from an ideal point of view. However, consider your role as a DM. Unless you DM a flawless game (i.e. you never make a mistake), then I agree you should never fudge dice. However, I for one do not admit to being perfect, so I fudge dice (very infrequently I assure you) in favor of a fun game. You can't assume, btw, that fudging is always against the PC's, I also fudge for them, particularly when I misjudge an encounter that could quickly turn into a TPK. Fudging can also be used to alter NPC's reactions. For example, D'Gran beats the snot out of the party...and then let's them leave? Why would he do that? Well, the fact is that he wouldn't! You fudge his reaction so that the party can escape (with whatever casualties they have), regroup, and learn from their mistakes. The alternative is a potentially ruined campaign. In a TPK, the DM doesn't "win". Another example, the party goes in the main gate and whips up on Terrenygit, about to kill him when you realize you forgot his endurance. Do you just say oh well? Are you that infallible that for 40+ bad guys you are expected to remember everything? Heck no! Add in those hit points now! Do your best to be prepared, sure, and I wouldn't suddenly add, say, endure elements (fire) at the last second, but in some special circumstances its okay. "One thing I never do to my players is cheat them." I disagree that you are cheating your players. Remember that 'cheating' for a DM is not the same thing, and should never be compared with cheating as a player. I hope you can agree with this, particular in light of your quote below. The DM has a totally different purpose. You certainly shouldn't fudge often, or when something critical is on the line (say the final combat with Imix or with Hedrack), but a random encounter with a single orc that surprises the party and crits the mage with a greataxe killing him is something else. "Remember this isn't you vs. your mates, this is you telling their story." Exactly how I feel about it, too. Example, if you use the orc replacement from the BotB, is that cheating? Not to me, it isn't, but you are certainly altering the story, 'fudging' it, to make it more difficult. Or, is there a difference between fudging real-time and beforehand? All IMO, and YMMV, and all that.
Siobharek Still here? Wow. (3/18/03 11:04 am) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem *Quote:* Remember this isn't you vs. your mates, this is you telling their story. You have a very well written and challenging module at your fingertips. Play it straight and everyone will have a good time. As I brought it up, I can't help address your points. I'm not talking about rampant "kill the PCs because it gives me a power trip" kind of cheating. What I mean is exactly what I said earlier: Give the bad guys a round or two. If I feel that I'm making a better encounter for my players to enjoy, it's my prerogative, or to mount a rather high horse my duty, to do so. Cheating for me is to blatantly fudge rolls - always in my favour, of course - not making the story more enjoyable. Any DM should tweak his adventure to make it enjoyable and challenging. If that can be accomplished by playing the module as written, fine. If it means that Uskathoth takes 3 rounds to cast 5 rounds' worth of spells and in turn puts up a little more of a fight, equally fine. Note that in GM's case (and in mine, for that matter), the group is a little more powerful than the adventure is scaled for. Therefore, running the adventure as written will make it a little easier and maybe reduce the feeling of deadliness for which it has been praised. There's quite a difference between cheating (I'm really trying not to use the euphemism 'changing on the fly') for the good of the story and cheating to one-up the players. I like to believe that I know that difference. But not "cheating" (whatever your definition) does make for a purer game - I'll give you that. *Edit:* hah, that's what comes from taking too long answering. Someone else makes the same points - only better. So, well, anyway. Count me in for a Me Too on Infiniti2K's post Siobharek ...it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing. Edited by: Siobharek at: 3/18/03 11:10:22 am
Zenon Here for a while (3/18/03 11:35 am) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem Ahh, the "cheating" issue, always a favorite argument on any board! Everyone will have an opinion on this that is different. All I have to say is this: Do whatever you need to make the game "fun" for BOTH you and your players. If that means not changing anything, strictly by-the-book-by-the-module then by all means do it! If that means giving an NPC the benefit of the doubt as to wether or not they have a Bull's Str running already, then do it! BTW - I do "fudge" on what spells an NPC might have running based on duration. However, I roll all hits, saves and damage out in the open.
Taxman66 Here for a while (3/18/03 12:31 pm) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem Devil's advocate voice "So, what's your attitude when the player is caught cheating and says: 'I was only trying to make the game more fun.'?" Taxman "It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
ZansForCans Here for a while (3/18/03 12:58 pm) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem *Quote:* So, what's your attitude when the player is caught cheating and says: 'I was only trying to make the game more fun.'? 9 times out of 10, they're doing it to have more fun just for themselves. The game is a social one, and that kind of behavior doesn't promote fun for everyone. 10 times out of 10, if I fudge, it's to make it more fun for everyone at the table (including me) or to make the story better. Just to throw another experience into the ring here, my players work very hard on their characters, both RP and back story. I tend to fudge in their favor more often during the first set of sessions to avoid wasting all that hard work, to give them a chance to get into their characters, and to give me a chance to launch the plot without getting bogged down with too much "oh, BTW, there's someone new that joining you today--try to make them feel at home". Now 15 sessions in, I'm not doing that since we're rolling along and they have a grasp of the deadliness. I generally don't fudge in favor of the bad guys, especially in this adventure since it's so deadly, except in a rare case of story (and that's usually not in combat). However, in the case that started these comments, unless you are really on top of things or the party is just one-on-one with said caster, it's probably not hard to find a few extra rounds here and there to fill in some buffing spells. I usually have to run these BTB to feel good about it myself, but in a large melee encompassing many areas (say the CRM gates), it may not be worthwhile without slowing the pace down too much. In that case, I personally worry less about the BTB aspect and go with what feels fair as a DM. As I2k said above, using pre-scripted event tracks may help out here. I've thought about rolling out in the open before, but my players are experienced enough that they would tempted to calculate bonuses and intrinsic stats from the success or failure of the rolls. That can ultimately lead to tactical decisions, which I really don't want to happen (subconsciously or not): "Gee, he rolled a 4 and still beat my DC 20 Will save. Oh well, no more of those spells this combat." We all run our games that way and haven't had much of a problem with it. We tend to save it for dramatic effect near the end of particularly rewarding (or harrowing) combats when there's less at stake spilling some beans. Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo
Urban Damage Looking around (3/18/03 1:16 pm) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem GM: Sorry for the hi-jack, I think you'd be better off not cheating and just letting the die fall how they may. Makes the game more fun you throw in that bit of randomness, and keeps folks on their toes' Sio & Inf2K: Since we've already hi-jacked GM's thread I'll try and keep this brief. You make clearer points in your last posts, and I don't feel as bad for your PCs as I did a couple hours ago. I suppose it really comes down to what GM wants. I'm all for scaling the encounters. Five PCs might call for a 25% increase in HPs for the NPCs as we know this was intended to be a 4 player module. No need to pull punches here either. Just give PCs the opportunity to react, don't just "make it so". And if a PC wizard is cleaved in two by an orc, that happens, the question is how did the orc get to him in the first place? Someone wasn't doing their job. My only point being that I see cheating as the reaction of DMs who want things to go their way. They have a particular idea of the way encounters should go, and when they don't head that direction they cheat to make up the difference. I prefer to let the dice tell the story. I do however respect both of your posts and will look more closely at this "fudging" you speak of. Taxman: Get out of my head, that's where I was going to go! EDIT: (SP) Edited by: Urban Damage at: 3/18/03 1:42:50 pm
Zenon Here for a while (3/18/03 1:30 pm) Reply	Re: I need a post-mortem I love questions like this: *Quote:* Devil's advocate voice "So, what's your attitude when the player is caught cheating and says: 'I was only trying to make the game more fun.'?" I say "So when are you running a game?" I say "I don't care how tough you are, the DM can still win whenever he wants to. Wanna see? (flips open Dieties & Demigods)" I say (while passing out XP): "Your XP? Oh, it's a negative number." I say "When I fudge, it's for everyone's enjoyment. When you fudge it only benefits you. How are these the same again?" Your arguments really doesn't hold water. If the DM wanted to "win", he easily could ("Hey! You're dead, no save!") without fudging a die roll. There is a big difference between being a player and being a DM. The player only has to show up to play, the DM has a butt-load of work that he puts in between games, organizing, readying NPC stats, judging, running 10-20 NPC's in a combat. If everyone can't cut him a little slack then there's something wrong, especially if he is doing it so both he and all his players get enjoyment out of the game. Usually, when a player cheats, he ruins something either for other players who are doing their best, or in order to try to "beat" the DM (who isn't in a contest: see "the DM can always win" above). If it makes you feel good about yourself to call DM's who fudge rolls "cheaters", then go ahead. It doesn't bother me to have that label, and if you asked any of my players I doubt you'd find anyone who objected to the way I run. I also doubt it bothers many other DMs here either because what we do, we do for a good reason.