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Xel565
Here for a while
(3/8/03 8:59 am)
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Area 32 OF, Annis tear and rend *URGENT*
I was doing a quick reread today before I run the adventure and spotted something that I hadn't noticed before. If an annis (such as the one is area 32 of the Outer Fane) hits with its claw attack and succeeds at its improved grab attempt, does it get to hit with all of its attacks (tear ability), and rend? The way I read it the annis has hit with both claws so it should get to rend right? This seems like a lot of damage.

Xel

Infiniti2000
Still here? Wow.
(3/8/03 10:10 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: Area 32 OF, Annis tear and rend *URGENT*
The annis always gets all three attacks, claw, claw, bite. Let's assume the annis hits with the first claw. You make an improved grab attack and success, they are now grappled. No effect on the other two attacks. Second claw, no need to make an improved grab because she already succeeded and since she is no grappled, the second claw automatically hits, and she automatically does the rend damage. The bite also automatically hits. Nasty. If she failed the grapple on the first claw, she would need to make an attack roll on the second claw, followed by another grapple check if she hit on the second claw. If she makes that grapple check, then the bite is automatic.

Next round, assuming the PC does not escape the grapple, she automatically hits with all three attacks (just roll damage) and therefore she automatically gets the rend damage. Btw, I don't suggest she take -20 either since her Dex is poor. I don't think the benefit of threatening the area around her is worth foregoing the awesome benefit of Tear and Rend.

Anyway, that's the way I read it.

Entropius
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(3/8/03 11:35 am)
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grappling
If she doesn't take the -20 on the first claw attack's Improved Grab, then both she and her opponent are both considered grappled ... won't she have to make a grapple check as normal to hit with the 2nd claw? She shouldn't have much of a problem doing that, of course...

...These sorts of situations are incredibly nasty... I suppose this is revenge for every druid PC that wild shapes into a bear and proceeds to grapple and chew on clerics.

Infiniti2000
Still here? Wow.
(3/8/03 11:41 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: grappling
You can attack with a light weapon, and natural attacks are considered light weapons, so she could continue with her other claw and bite while grappled. The Tear ability specifically states that while held, she automatically hits with all three attacks. Nasssty. I got a druid IMC, too, and I am already fearing some of things she will be able to do...but not as much as they will fear Hedrack. :evil

Entropius
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(3/8/03 11:52 am)
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Ah, right ... forgot about Tear
I forgot about the annis' Tear autohit thingy.

Hedrack ... wow. I don't see how he can not kill several PC's with those death spells of his...

SSShadowcat7
Here for a while
(3/8/03 3:17 pm)
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Re: Ah, right ... forgot about Tear
Just a head's up. That Annis in the Outer Fane is extremely nasty if played intelligently. She killed 2 party members on her own and nearly took out a 3rd before she was defeated.

SIERK
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(3/9/03 4:57 pm)
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Re: Ah, right ... forgot about Tear
For what it's worth, I have a Druid/Shifter in my party who has used the Annis Hag form several times, with good effect. He managed to almost singlehandedly bring down a fully buffed, flying Naquent (jumped up, grabbed her and brought her down), grappled the Elder Tojanda successfully as well...

Anyhow, I spent a fair amount of time thinking about this.

I decided that Tear was a full-round action, usable if the Hag is in a grappled state at the start of its action. As such, it would not come into play during the first round of the grapple. Which means that the Hag's improved grab should work the way everyone else's does, which is the "creature is now grappled and forfeits the remainder of its attacks unless it took that -20 grapple check".

I don't think the Annis Hag is overpowered (even when used by a PC) when doing this. The first round is a bit of a "wasted" round. Unless of course, they succeed with the -20 grapple check, and get 2 claws and the rend in there anyway. It is a really nice form, regardless.

Zenon
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(3/10/03 7:25 am)
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Re: Ah, right ... forgot about Tear
Heh, my players nailed the hag with a Polymorph Other on their first round that punched through SR and she failed the save, so I never got to use her.

Bummer for me, but the PC's were high fiving each other about it.

Edited by: Zenon at: 3/10/03 7:26:10 am
Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(3/10/03 9:49 am)
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Re: Ah, right ... forgot about Tear
SIERK, you have a Druid/Shifter too? How high of level, and how much of a pain has he been?

Mine has a huge fondness for Troll form, and likes to take the 'first in' approach, expecting to wake up after the fight is over and he's "pulled himself together" sufficiently. Claw, Claw, Bite (GMF) and Rend is popular with him, too. As is that accursed Stirge form. :(

He just hit 7/5 and has two more shifts/day. I don't know what Magical Beasts he's going to go after, but I'm afraid to find out. It should get interesting from here.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

SIERK
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(3/10/03 4:00 pm)
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Re: Ah, right ... forgot about Tear
My Druid/Shifter is an 8/3. So he hasn't gotten the troll form yet. So far, he's used a fair amount of Bear forms, and recently has tried out the Annis Hag and Grey Render.

The troll form worries me a bit. But he already is one of the tougher ones to kill in melee.

One thing I have to keep reminding myself is that his array of equipment will make him appear anything but natural when in animal forms.

He's got an array of magical items; an animated shield, a +2 belt of strength (I know, not standard), gloves of dex, necklace, rings, etc. With all this, his AC is pretty durn high, and he's got really nice saves, and a bunch of hitpoints. And he can get Spell Resistance.

Still, the grappling routine with the Hag doesn't overshadow the BBn/Cle/Templar (Kord) with his 2-handed greatsword. Nor does it overshadow the sorcerer's haste/enhanced lightning bolt/etc routine. (Do we have the same party or what?) The Arcane Archer with her flaming bow is pretty powerful as well. The ranger is proving why people don't like the class.

So, I haven't been unhappy with the relative power level of the Shifter yet. Hopefully that won't change... Oh, and no way in heck am I going to allow the purgin' Stirge routine. Maybe if they were nauseated for a couple rounds and left with only partial actions. Something to make it not worthwhile.

Belial
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(3/10/03 6:42 pm)
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Re: Ah, right ... forgot about Tear
I think that I’ve missed something… Wildshape, like Polymorph other (revised) doesn’t convey the (Ex) Extraordinary abilities that a creature has. Therefore Rend and Improved Grab (also troll regeneration) are not gained by it.

From what I can recall the Greater Wildshape didn’t convey this ability either.

Have I missed something? I don’t have any shifters in the party at the moment so it’s something I vaguely recall.

Belial.

Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(3/11/03 7:24 am)
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Re: Ah, right ... forgot about Tear
Masters of the Wild, Page 11:

Quote:

"The druid acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature whos form she has taken while retaining her own mind. Physical abilities include size as well as Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores. Natural abilities include armor, natural weapons (such as claws, bite or gore), sensory abilities (such as low-light vision), and similar gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings or gills, number of extremities, and so forth)...The Druid also gains all the racial bonuses and feats of the animal form selected. She does not gain any supernatural or spell-like abilities (such as breath weapons or gaze attacks) of her new form, but does gain all the form's extraordinary abilities."



Wildshape isn't exactly the same thing as Polymorph, and it does convey all Ex abilities, including Trollish Regeneration and Rending.

SIERK, I wouldn't worry overmuch if he hits on the stirge idea. First, don't suggest it...let him think of it. Second, if he does think of it, tell him that he can't drink more than 4 points before he's "full" and can't take any more. If he does manage to invent the "purging" technique, don't worry overmuch about it. Here's my controls over the method:

1) He's still a small, vulnerable target that loses Dex bonuses to AC when attached. He's going to take a pounding, from the victim at the very least, and likely from any nearby companions.

2) A full-round action to purge is forever in a swirling melee.

3) In general, I limited him back a bit by saying that the "touch" attack of the Stirge still has to get through Natural Armor (some things just have tough hides).


It still doesn't work on bloodless things, it's under-effective against smaller opponents, and it gets him in a LOT of trouble against bigger ones (witness when Chymon SNATCHED him with a bite attack as an AoO for flying up).

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

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