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Eltern Here for a while (3/18/03 6:26 pm) Reply	Outer Fane happy My party will soon be entering the Outer Fane, from what door I don't know. 1. If they enter at the Air door, and the stalkers run and tell Hedrack, what is the sequence of events/orders from Hedrack? I'm sure this has already been gone over, and if so just direct me to the site. 2. The party will probably walk right by the elemental, but will foul up with the elite guards at the Earth door. Can/will the guards get help from the elemental? 3. I'm pretty comfortable with the fire door and Chymon, but I have a rules question: Chymon will probably snatch the party gnome out of invisibility, and probably kill her between the surprise round (in which she bites and grapples) and the subsequent round in which she deals bite damage again. (19 avg damage times 2= more HP than the gnome wizard has) Can Chymon, on the first normal round after her surprise attack, both deal the killing damage to the gnome and make a full attack? I think that Snatch allowed this, wasn't sure though. Also, I want to Sunder the party fighter's +1 Greataxe (it might take two hits, but with 218 hp and DR 5/+1 he can wait). Can Chymon do this? PHB says you need at least a +1 enhancement bonus in order to damage a +1 weapon. That bites, if this mean that Chymon can't sunder magic weapon. I may trade out the Sunder for a Hover in such a case. Thanks, Eltern
Elexis the Lady of the Dead Looking around (3/18/03 6:43 pm) Reply	Responce Chymon has damage reduction 5/+1. That means her claws are treated as +1 weapons for the purpose of damage reduction and other things (like sundering weapons.) I'm not sure that's exactly how it works by the defult rules, but it might work for Chymon even if it is against the rules because everyone knows that the universe bends to let dragons do what ever they want. If Chymon wants to Sunder a +1 weapon than she can do it.
setanta14 Looking around (3/18/03 7:55 pm) Reply	Re: Responce Don't forget that Chymon uses her breath weapon while holding the "Snatched" small size character in her mouth (no save vs. the breath weapon that way because its a REF save, and the pc will be grappled)
Infiniti2000 Still here? Wow. (3/18/03 8:54 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Responce Chymon can indeed sunder a +1 weapon. I second setanta14's motion to have Chymon use the breath weapon on the gnome while he's snatched. That's a much cooler way to die than merely being bitten in half. Save the biting for the dragon t-rexes.
ZansForCans Here for a while (3/18/03 10:06 pm) Reply	Re: Responce {I second setanta14's motion to have Chymon use the breath weapon on the gnome while he's snatched. That's a much cooler way to die than merely being bitten in half.} Right on. Look, you and I blow on our food when it's too hot to eat right? I'm sure Chymon does the same to hers when it's too cold. Only seems natural... Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo Edited by: ZansForCans at: 3/18/03 10:10:11 pm
Andorax Still here? Wow. (3/19/03 8:08 am) Reply	Re: Responce Ok, let me chart this out then, be sure if it's all clear. Round 0 (party just activated the Fire Door). Chymon casts Invisibility. Round 1 (party doesn't know that rounds are happening yet, thus it's a "surprise" round). Chymon only gets a partial action, due to it being a surprise round. Partial Charge, attack with bite and Snatch the Gnome. Accept a -20 to your grapple check so that Chymon is not counted as grappled. Round 2. On Chymon's initiative, move to ideal position (not grappled, took the -20), and breath so as to catch the entire party (and roast the Gnome to a cinder). If the Gnome goes first on Round 2, he can attempt a grapple check (vs. Chymon at -20) to escape...modestly good odds. Round 3. If the Barbarian is close enough, proceed with your Sunder attack. Or, if you prefer, just make a Disarm attack. As per Sword & Fist, you can make a "full body" Disarm with unarmed/natural and count it as = your size category, thus it's a Large Greataxe vs a Huge Dragon...+4 to your side. Once you have the item in your teeth, the door should still be open...just spit it out into the Stalagos, or chomp down on it (it's an unattended object now). As for the Earth Door...why would they wander by the Earth Elemental? Are they running under a disguise? If I were in command of the "elite guards", here's my take: 1) line up in formation...archers to the back, swordsmen in the front. Send one guy running back down the hall to warn the Assassins and Hedrack. 2) if the Earth Elemental is walked right past, due to the PCs wearing the right symbols and markings, you might consider having one of the guards charge past (yes, sucking up AoOs), make a Grapple attack on a rear PC, and try to rip off their symbol, while shouting "Infidel! Defiler! There is a foe hiding among us!", and having the Earth Elemental rise up in response to an "unmarked" individual. 3) Temper the above two with an IMPORTANT notation. The guards may very well be tricked just as easily as the Earth Elemental. Don't grant them DM-omnescience...let the PCs fool them as well if they bluff well enough. 4) Remember this. Elder Earth Elementals have a NASTY Grapple check (+33, +34 if you count Earth Mastery into Grapples). Added to Reach, and their high DR, and they can readily tear an individual PC to pieces. Now as for the Air Door (they really have a full 3 Greater Keys? Wow!). This one is the least defended, the most in need of delay and confuse tactics. My thought is that it's actually unlikely that they would just let foes in and go run for Hedrack. Stalkers are pretty self-confident critters, and the Arrowhawks have a lot of room to evade (reread the layout of the room, especially it's height). Just wade in. Stalkers strangling whoever seems to be able to spot them best, Arrowhawks blasting anyone with missiles or spells. If you get down to only one or two, use invisibility/mobility to flee, perhaps through the room of Dark Elementalism or the Tentacle Trap...THEN flee for Hedrack's quarters and warn him of intruders. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
Eltern Here for a while (3/19/03 3:30 pm) Reply	yeah.. They have 2 greater keys right now, air and fire, but they are going through the earth temple for some reason, I think to finish the near complete destruction (sans Uskathoth and his second) of the Earth Temple they started when they first entered the CRM. (The xorns had beaten them away) I hope I hope I hope I hope that they go through the fire door Also, for my personal reference, the order of nasties Hedrack sics on the party while in the CRM 1. one assassin, at night 2. one invisible stalker, whenever 3. somebody and a bunch of dire lions, whenever 4. hole up and wait for them to come, OR Thrommel Scrying all the time. Eltern
Abelard Still here? Wow. (3/19/03 7:07 pm) Reply	nits & stuff Regarding the sunder issue: I believe that was debated on the rules board a while ago (likely gone to page 21). IIRC, a very close and literal-minded reading of the rules says that a creature with DR/+X has attacks that count as +X only for purposes of getting through DR. Needing a +X weapon to damage a weapon of +X is a separate matter and not related to the DR thing. That being said, I think most people agreed that this was kind of silly, and sure dragons, etc. should be able to sunder magic weapons. Nit about the Snatch feat: the snatched character loses his Ref save vs. the dragon's breath not because he is grappled, but because the text of the Snatch feat says so. A grappled character can still make Ref saves! In fact, in the rules a grappled character has no penalty to his Ref saves. I think a good house rule would be that a pinned (not just grappled) character has his Ref save DC's increased by the same bonus that other characters get when attacking him - namely, +4. Complaint about the Snatch feat: my party has no Small characters in it. Stinkin' worthless feat! Should I switch it out for Chymon, or would that be "DM metagaming?" (I think it would be, to some extent.)
Infiniti2000 Still here? Wow. (3/19/03 9:19 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Responce "Added to Reach, and their high DR, and they can readily tear an individual PC to pieces." Not to mention that the elemental can pin a PC while, say, a stone giant pummels said PC into paste. With Chymon, don't forget to use power attack judiciously. "Should I switch it out for Chymon, or would that be 'DM metagaming?'" Well, it smacks of it, true, but it depends on your group. If you think it would make for a interesting encounter if, say, Chymon had improved critical or something, then I say go for it. If you're not sure, then just leave it. You could also give her hover, but she wouldn't be able to use that either. IIRC, you said you have a shifter right? Isn't it possible that the shifter might transform into a small creature? Are there any small or tiny familiars or animal companions? Since I have you all reading this thread, anyone think about the question I posted on the rules thread that SIERK started? Chymon using the armbands of reduction doesn't change size categories, so she can still snatch and still has reach, etc. Do you agree?
Abelard Still here? Wow. (3/20/03 1:02 am) Reply	Re: Responce No shifter here... no PrC's at all yet. One familiar (raven), but usually left far away.
Eltern Here for a while (3/22/03 10:00 am) Reply	Well... My party entered the Outer Fane, through the Air Door (phooey). It was really nice, because I was up walking around with the book, which made my players nervous because I normally sit in front of the laptop which is hooked up to a TV so I can show images and such. I asked "So you have all entered the Outer Fane?" And they said "Umm....ehh....yes..." And then I flipped off the lights. Then all were startled, and THEN I flipped on the other other two blacklights, and turned on the TV to show a large picture of an obex on a purple background. "Welcome" It was great, they were so scared the whole time, especially since we had to use flashlights to effectively see. Anyway, a couple questions. I know that we've had threads before reffering to appropriate levels in the Outer Fane, and what Hedrack does when he's alerted of intruders. Can anyone refer me to these threads, because I cannot find them, it seems. Should a 6 person party, four level 9 and 2 level 8, not die too badly? The party entered the air door wearing EEE symbols, so the arrowhawks didn't attack, though the stalkers followed. They party wandered around the passages until they entered the storage room near the tentacle trap, which tipped the stalkers off that these people probably didn't belong here. The party then entered the tentacle trap room, and the party fighter got hit by 6 of the buggers. At the same time, the stalkers attacked the group from behind. Always invisible is MEAN!!! So, should I really have Thrommel come get them, because that's just horrid, and I kinda want to save that powercard. The party is also sortof aware that there was once a guy named Thrommel, and what he looked like. So now one of the stalkers is running off to Hedrack, and the other is doing a beat down. PCs don't get an AoO on an invisible foe, even if they think it might be moving, correct? Oh, and does anyone have any of the Outer Fane map scanned in? I didn't see it in the yahoo group or the alternate site. I want to use it on the TV I already mentioned. Eltern
Infiniti2000 Still here? Wow. (3/22/03 10:21 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Well... That's an awesome mood you've created! Sounds great! "So, should I really have Thrommel come get them, because that's just horrid, and I kinda want to save that powercard." This would still be a great time to introduce Thrommel. He doesn't have to engage in combat unless the PC's foolishly do so. He can just introduce himself and perhaps take a minute to convince the PC's to remove his coffin, if you choose that plot element that is. Even if you don't, I'd still bring him in, talk the players, chuckle, and then leave, muttering about foolish mortals. "PCs don't get an AoO on an invisible foe, even if they think it might be moving, correct?" Correct. If you can't see the foe (some PC should have see invisible or true seeing going!) you don't get the attack IMO. This will work in the PC's favor more often, btw, so don't let their protests bother you. "Oh, and does anyone have any of the Outer Fane map scanned in? I didn't see it in the yahoo group or the alternate site. I want to use it on the TV I already mentioned." Yes. It is on ZansForCans site. Go to file archive->outer fane and you will see a monster file. It is a 300 DPI scan of the Outer Fane that I merged into one image. You can also check out CRM->CRM-OF-BigMap.zip, which has the whole CRM (all the maps merged and the OF). I'm still working on cleaning that image up and would welcome comments on how to do the water. I also have the OF image reduced to 25% and I just uploaded that image. Perhaps ZFC can move it. If you need it in a hurry, PM me and I will e-mail it (2.25MB).
ZansForCans Here for a while (3/22/03 2:43 pm) Reply	Re: Well... File is there now... Outer Fane -> OuterFaneTiny.bmp Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo
Eltern Here for a while (3/22/03 3:43 pm) Reply	asdf Thanks for the maps! Very useful. Well now the party has gotten free of the tentacle room, still fighting the invisible stalkers, and as I said, one is going off after Hedrack. Now in reality, Hedrack SHOULD have been scrying/sent an assassin a day or two ago after the party..........but I forgot $:\$ With this being said, and given the low scry checks for all my players, I will simply pretend that Hedrack had been following them a little, and knew that they were coming. So with all that, Heddy and his posse should be there any moment. But with who? I still can't find a thread detailing his actions in case of invasion. So now there will be maybe 1-2 minutes before others show up, especially since the party doesn't even know that one of the stalkers went for Heddy (Always invisible is MEAN!) I don't think that's really time for Thrommel to do something..memorable, don'tchya think? I suppose just walking in, laughing, and walking away would be good... Eltern
Eltern Here for a while (3/22/03 5:50 pm) Reply	Oh Oh, actually....this would be a good time for Varachan, wouldn't it? Heddy has told Varachan to keep an eye on the party, and hasn't done so himself. So now Hedrack isn't completely ready/aware of the party..until the stalker tells him. Any reason that the stalker would go tell Varachan instead? Or how about Varachan has been scrying on them, and goes to intercept the stalker, or just rescue the party? Eltern
Andorax Still here? Wow. (3/24/03 7:53 am) Reply	Re: Oh Hmm.... Well, as for Thrommel, he would definately investegate the tentacle trap going off. My take on it is a bit different, and since you seem to be a big fan of "effect", it should work well. Bring him up and within sight of the room. Have him try to find a single isolated individual, capture their gaze, and dominate them. Then have them follow you to a more private location, some distance away from the PCs. Put on your best "you turn at a slight noise down the corridor, and see a burning red pair of eyes...you can't make out the figure belonging to them, or even the corridor around him anymore...only the eyes themselves, boring into you..." Thrommel isn't in the Varachan/Hedrack loop, so he has NO idea who these people are or what they're doing here. He's going to question his captive, find out what the deal is, and then decide whether it's in his best interests to deal with them, or to return (dominated PC in tow) and lay some smack down. Don't be afraid to be brutal here, it is the Outer Fane after all. On the other front, Hedrack is definately going to be concerned, but he's NOT one for getting involved personally. IMC, he has a Master Ring, and Victor, Bethe, Naquient and Varachan all have Slave Rings (Book of Vile Darkness), which will allow him to send a message to each of them. It will be "We're being attacked...converge at the outer temple". Victor and Bethe will be the first wave...they're likely going to be at Hedrack's quarters in a few rounds, and will probably go with the second Stalker to form a first wave of resistance. Naquient will gather up nearby troops (IMC, she snagged the Minotaurs and the Quasit...but that was 'cause the guards north of the Earth Door were already dead), come through the secret passage by the Earth Door, and follow up. I'd give her about a 3 minute delay time to reach the Greater Temple's entrance hall, where Hedrack will meet her. Varachan will try to come up behind the PCs, paranoid that this may be his only shot. When he reaches them (likely at a dead run), it'll be about two minutes later. Likely strategy for him, under the circumstances, would be to pull them back and see if he can get them to assault the Prison (he knows how to work it) and get some allies. So, I would script it something like this: 0-round (now): 1 minute undisturbed to finish off the tentacles and the stalker. At this stage, Hedrack has sent the notice out to the CRM. +10 rounds: Thrommel tries to lure off a PC to question. Questioning will take roughly five minutes. +15 rounds: Victor, Bethe and the Stalker assault the party. More if they withdraw, less if they advance. The PCs will likely discover they're missing a PC at this stage in the game. +25 rounds: Varachan arrives, looking terrified, and tries to find SOME way to parley with the PCs instead of getting attacked immediately. VERY quickly reveals who and what he is, and encourages them to withdraw, explaining the whole "free the prisoners" thing as they retreat. +30 rounds: Hedrack, Naquient, the Minotaurs, the Elite Guards and the Quasit are gathered in the hall just outside the Greater Temple. Any survivors of Victor, Bethe, and the Stalkers will meet here as well, and so too will Thrommel (with dominated PC, if applicable) if the PCs seem weak or unlikely to succeed. This will form the assault force, which will fan out from here (the Quasit and the Guards forming the main scouts) to attempt to locate and destroy the PCs. Build up to a big fight in the prison block unless the PCs think of something else creative. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
Infiniti2000 Still here? Wow. (3/24/03 8:38 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Oh Nasty plan, Andorax. Love it! Remember to target a PC with a low will save, like an ogre fighter.
Eltern Here for a while (3/24/03 9:32 am) Reply	Umm... Man, I don't want them ALL to die, though. They're a 6 person party, all level 8.5 (3 at 9, 3 at That'd probably be a TPK, and they have no contigency plans if they all die... Eltern
Andorax Still here? Wow. (3/24/03 11:54 am) Reply	Re: Umm... That's part of the reason for the Prison part of it...if the PCs release the prisoners, particularly the Paladin and the Lammasu, they will have some reinforcements to back them up. You can also have Thrommel's "questioning" take longer than the rest of it put together, which removes that PC from the threat of being destroyed...add something later between Thrommel and Varachan, and you have one survivor. Still, they should get the impression that this place is dangerous, and they should realize that the occupants will plan well and work together. They shouldn't encounter people sitting around in separate rooms. You can take a look at how they handle the Assassin/Stalker attack and gauge from there, dropping off other troops if you feel it's too much. Remember, though, Hedrack doesn't like to get involved personally, unless it's behind a wall of lackeys. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
Eltern Here for a while (3/24/03 2:48 pm) Reply	k We'll see how this works this Friday. I think I'll take your advice with the whole order of events, Andorax Eltern
Infiniti2000 Still here? Wow. (3/24/03 6:46 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: k Remember to use your bad guys however you see fit. Your campaign will be different than everyone elses. For example, Thrommel might actually want the PC's to succeed in killing Hedrack. After all, what vampire wants a freaking high level cleric around? If the one PC is off to the side and Thrommel sees a golden opportunity...who knows? Another idea, Varachan knows that Thrommel 'knows' he's also a high level cleric. "Okay, Thrommy-boy, it works like this, see. I have a direct order from the First that Hedrack needs to be taught a lesson. Now with either of us apart, it'd be tough, but together, and with these intruders...?"