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msherman
Here for a while
(4/2/03 5:01 am)
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My party won't play along!
My party consistently avoids all the interesting ritual items in this adventure. They didn't light the Torch of Revealing in the moathouse (and in fact completely ignored the pillar), they didn't sit in the throne in the old temple (which I would have given the same zuggtmoy effect as the underground throne, as suggested on this board), and I had to twist their arm to get them to translate the scroll describing the black cyst ritual. One of them (the cleric of Pelor!) came close to playing the drums etc at the altar in the ghoul caves, but the others smacked him down. How do I draw them in to all these interesting things?
They do plan on returning to the moathouse to clear out the Cockatrices next session -- should I have Yether (or even Y'dey) encourage them to examine the pillar with the torch of revealing, or would that be too heavy-handed?
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madfox
Still here? Wow.
(4/2/03 5:14 am)
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Re: My party won't play along!
Well, if it makes you feel any better, neither did my party. The leaders of the group have high intelligence and wisdom and they do not like the idea of experimenting with obvious evil things and who blames them? They are still waiting for the time when their warrior and rogue will be hit by lightning for accepting a gift from total blackness in what obviously is a prison of some sort (they think something is imprisoned in the obelisk and the cultists want to free it). Personally I have got little problems with it. It keeps them alive.
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Grumgarr
Here for a while
(4/2/03 6:10 am)
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Spoilsport players :)
I know it's a letdown as the DM when you're dying to run an interesting part of the adventure and the PCs just plain refuse to play along...
...but really they're wise not to mess with rituals to dark gods and what are obviously ritual artifacts (like the Torch).
I think it's quite refreshing actually - my group lit the torch (I had to hint a >little<) and then one by one all touched the gem - hell, every one of them ate the fruit - they even brought the replacement PC to the moathouse to get a 'nifty stat boost'.
I've been increasingly feeding them all dark brooding dreams and blackhearted desires since - just to remind them they're touched by something evil, and it was their choice.
But the fact that they had >zero< respect at the time for messing with what was fairly clearly a spooky dark ritual place was a little of a letdown - that was metagame thinking at its worst.
The nifty dark ritual parts of the adventure might never get touched by the PCs, (nobody conveniently stood on the Dark Sun and shouted 'Tharizdun' IMC, which I was hoping for a little) and yes it can be a letdown for the DM, but if they're determined not to go near the spooky bits then more power to them.
Of course, railroading can be done subtly - like giving them pointers to the idea that 'clues' are to be had by 'maybe just dabbling with the bad stuff a >little, itty bit<'.
But if they still won't bite, let them stay pure of heart, I say.
Grumgarr
Edited by: Grumgarr at: 4/2/03 6:14:01 am
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Cordo Crowfoot
Here to stay
(4/2/03 6:41 am)
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Re: Spoilsport players :)
My party was similar. One of them wanted to light the torch but the rest were deathly afraid and wouldn't allow it. No gem touching, no "Tharizdun" saying on the black sun, nothing. But I agree with Grumgarr that you just have to respect their caution. It's actually good play.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(4/2/03 6:46 am)
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Re: Spoilsport players :)
I'm with the others on this one. Why would Y'Dey or Terjon light a screamingly evil artifact of one of the most horrifying cults ever and then touch the gem or in other ways interact with things that are only for demented cultists to use?
Sure, your players miss out on some of the cool stuff, but then again, many of those who avail themselves of the cool stuff (stat increases, decks of many things, etc.), get smacked upside the head by their DMs despite the fact that there is nothing in the adventure indicating that the character shouldn't get away with it.
Yes, that last bit was a small dig at all the board members who are imposing penalties on their fruit-eating PCs or who want to to alter the 'Deck to the detriment of their parties.
IMHO, the perceived freebies are there to reward those players who are willing to take great risks with their characters. The whole setup s-c-r-e-a-m-s evil, so dabbling with it should by any measure result in badness happening. The fact that it doesn't (always) end to the detriment of the PCs is - again IMHO - a testament to the madness of Tharizdun.
So I think that your players are sensible. I think that it sucks that they didn't want to try out some of the cooler rides in the theme park that is RttToEE. But I'm convinced that they'll experience WOW factors in the upper 1000s later on.
So don't worry.
Edit: Removed a very annoying "with"
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. Edited by: Siobharek at: 4/2/03 7:22:03 am
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(4/2/03 7:19 am)
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Re: Spoilsport players :)
My best advice for DMs starved for the "fun" of seeing their PCs mess with stuff they shouldn't is...live vicariously through the other DMs here who have less cautious players!
Really, the players are NOT there for your amusement, and DMing is not about seeing how you can torment them.
"Come on...just try it. No, seriously. Try it. TRY IT! C'mon...it was put here for a reason and it's really cool, so try it."
"Ok, I try it"
"MUWAHAHAHA!!! Make three saving throws DC 30 or die!"
Let the chips fall where they may, let the players do what they will, and tell the story based on their actions, not on the things you *want* them to be doing. It's their story.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
WarrenWright
Here for a while
(4/2/03 7:34 am)
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Re: Spoilsport players :)
At least my party ran through the pool of water at the bottom of the obelisk 4-5 times during combats with Festrath and the Grell.
Of course they made their saving throws every time.
Other than that, they wisely bypassed all the other cool cultish things.
It -is- a little dissapointing to have these elaborately detailed things that can happen to people who do this or that, when the odds are very low that anyone will actually do them.
-W
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msherman
Here for a while
(4/2/03 11:50 am)
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Re: Spoilsport players :)
Thanks for all the tips. The consensus seems to be very strong that I should do nothing. However, I think that the party will lose out on a lot of adventure and possibly some required stuff later in the adventure if they never light a torch of revealing out of fear of evil artifacts.
So I think that what I'm going to do is this: when they get back to Hommlet, Y'Dey and Yether will let them know that they've done some research into the artifacts, and found references to the Torch of Revealing. She'll let them know it's use and purpose, and that in and of itself it is not an evil item, in fact it was first created by the church of Pelor in ancient times and used in the fight -against- Tharizdun, to illuminate and help destroy his artefacts. Some of those torches were stolen by the cult of Tharizdun, and others created for them by fallen clerics of Pelor driven mad by the influence of Tharizdun, and the cult now uses them to reclaim their ancient sites. (She won't mention the Black Thurible -- those were created only for Tharizdun's cult, by those same fallen clerics of Pelor.)
She'll encourage the party to return to the moathouse and light the torch, looking for a way to destroy the Obelisk. I'll try my hardest not to prod them any further than that, though -- if they decide not to touch the gem, more power to them.
However, I have a special secret planned for the party thief -- I'm integrating Monte's free web adventure Thicker Than Water into the campaign, and the thief is just in the process of discovering his true nature as a creature of air. If he touches the gem, he'll get a special message from his ancestor, Yan-C-Bin. 
Am I going to far with the rail-roading?
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Taxman66
Here for a while
(4/2/03 12:16 pm)
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Re: Spoilsport players :)
IMO, yes you are.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(4/2/03 12:35 pm)
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Re: Spoilsport players :)
I agree with Taxman66. Basically, you're saying that most everyone here has told you not to, but you're going to anyway.
Mind you, this is your privlidge. It's your campaign, not ours, and you know yourself and your group better than the rest of us.
Still, I think it would be far better to let them stick to their purity and standards as-is at this point. There's time and enough down the road to let evil have it's way and force them into difficult situations.
Wait and see if they pocket the Demonstone, or destroy it on sight.
Let it be Varachan who tells the party what the torch and thurbule do, and only just in time to use them in the Greater Temple to recover the Orb of Silvery Death.
There's plenty more where that came from, so don't sweat it that they're passing on the early rounds.
Ask yourself why you're doing this...because you feel it's something they genuinely *need*, or becasue it's so cool that you can't give up letting them pass it by. If it's the latter, then you're definately railroading the PCs far too much, and you need to let them play their own game.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
msherman
Here for a while
(4/2/03 1:06 pm)
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Re: Spoilsport players :)
Yeah, I forgot that Varachan can let them in on the Torch in time for when they really need it in the greater temple. I guess I'll give up my dreams of corrupting the party this early...  Thanks for setting me straight, folks.
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amerigoV
Here for a while
(4/3/03 4:23 pm)
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Re: Spoilsport players :)
Do you have any NPCs in the party (Xoad, for example)? Perhaps they play with some of those "cool" things when the party is distracted counting the loot.
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msherman
Here for a while
(4/3/03 5:19 pm)
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Re: Spoilsport players :)
Nope, Xaod bit the dust in the last session. I do have two players who will be playing one-off NPCs next session, though. I might encourage one of them to play a bit fast-and-loose with the Ancient Relics -- they are evil (hobgoblins).
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