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The guy from Belgium
Here for a while
(4/15/03 4:05 am)
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the water temple seems too easy...
ok, sit rap:

barbarian 9
fighter 4 / cleric 5 of pelor
wizard 10
fighter 9
monk 9

high level party, i know... and i'm not boosting too many things, just playing the enemies a hell of a lot smarter than they should be, which can be even deadlier than boosting them... on top of that, they all have maximum hitpoints, not average ones...

so, the party runs in to the water temple area, past oomkraan... who falls back into the temple itself to assist in its defenses...

basicaly, it's the 5 PCs against:

kelashein (human female cleric)
nilbool (kuo toa sorc/cleric)
3 large (improved) skums
oomkraan (half fiend/half kuo toa)
2 kuo toa fighters on the platform

the water elemental will be summoned soon...

BUT... it seems too easy... my party had a hell of a time breaking through the earth temple, which is a lot weaker acording to the module...

so why is this one easier? The two kuo toa's are dead, but they disarmed the fighter, who has a backup greatsword...

the half fiend (oomkraan) isn't much of a challenge with his low hitpoints...

nilbool can use his wand of slow to a devastating effect, which he does wonderfully

kelashein isn't very good in melee or with casting...

so where is the challenge? what am i doing wrong?

next session is tomorrow... so all help is appreciated!

P.

Grumgarr
Here for a while
(4/15/03 4:24 am)
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Re: the water temple seems too easy...
This fight IMC killed one PC and had a TPK looming - I had 6 PCs (all about level 7-8) .

The first thing to remember is that the platform is far away across a whole lot of water. The bad guys can wait for the PCs to come to them, and pick them off like the sitting ducks they are...

With a boat (dragged from the Sea Hag's cave?), the PCs have to row/paddle - and move a lot slower than running (I gave a paddled boat a 'generous' 20' move per round, if paddled as a full round action by 2 PCs) - that's a long time to get to the spellcasting bad guys.
Plenty of time to get every PC in the boat with every nasty area effect spell you can hurl.
The Water Temple was guarded by ... the Elf Wizard and his archers IMC too - this meant fireball...which should instantly scupper the boat too, dropping the PCs into the water.
And when that Elemental appears...world of hurt.
Its swim speed is very impressive, and its vortex will sink any boat in the CRM, nit to mention its vicious attack sequence - remember it gets a bonus (+1 to hit and damage) vs. PCs in the water - but a penalty if neither it nor the PCs touch the water.

The second thing is the effect of the pools on the Skum. Maximised Bull's Strength/Endurance makes the large Skum really deadly.
Anyone trying to swim to the platform (never going to happen in heavy armour) should be faced underwater by these beasts which have reach, breathe water and have a swim speed - all of which means you DON'T want to fight them in the water. Check out the errata for their properly advanced stats (I think).

Flying PCs have it a lot easier, but can everyone fly?
And the water mephits...are they about? Their breath weapon and spell-like abilities are nasty enough en masse, and they needn't come close enough for melee, meaning the PCs have to take it to them (if they can).

One other tactic to remember is the position of PCs and the pools themselves - Urluung(?) the Kuo-Toa monk managed to Bull Rush a PC into the acid pool - the damage listed in the module is for touching the pool - immersion merits a lot more damage (6d6) per round - and it should affect clothing and equipment too (though perhaps 3d6 - half-damage to objects? - on everything the PC owns is too much?).

The greatest threat to the PCs comes from the environment being difficult to navigate (pun intended :) ) - the foes just get to make full use of their nasties for once - this is not an area where the PCs get to pick and choose their opponents and approach. Intelligent playing of the bad guys means woe to the PCs here - unless they can fly.

If only one or two PCs can fly, they can get mobbed, grappled, dragged underwater, dropped in acid pools, all the good stuff.

And mobility is key...use the water - the Kuo-Toans and Skum swim fast, Kelashien can have the Water Elemental carry her (Swim 90'?).

Grumgarr

Edited by: Grumgarr at: 4/15/03 4:29:18 am
Killiak 
Here to stay
(4/15/03 4:24 am)
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Re: the water temple seems too easy...
Kelashein not much of a caster? U been smoking something?
Divine Power, Magic vestments, dispel magic, healing, bull strenghts and endurances......
She can pump up her minions. Silence the water elemental and send it into the group of PC's. Not much of a challenge eh? Set it up right and it's downright lethal, even for higher end PC's

Have the Large Scums do grapple time with the monk (2 scums working together) and wizard (touch attack for a grapple, it's not like his attack of oppurtunity will work). Have the fighters and Oomkraan take care of the barbarian and fighter.
See if ya can Hold Person the barbarian even. Make sure U have the initiative by setting a nice ambush ;) .

and Oh dear Lord! Kuo Tao are unaffected by webs and can see objects even if they are invis or something like it. Cast a darkness and a web on the PC's. Change Nilbool (who is a wizard by the way) so that he has Fireball instead of a lightning bolt. Make him a sorcerer if you want to hurt the PC's. Start off with that and web/darkness them on the next round. Play this right and it's ouchie time since only the monk has a decent reflex save!.
I hope this has helped

Killiak 
Here to stay
(4/15/03 11:21 pm)
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hey
let us know how it went!

Trithereon
Here quite a while
(4/16/03 12:11 am)
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Re: the water temple seems too easy...
My experience with the Water Temple was similar to Grumgarr's

I just ran my player's attack on the Water Temple last night. The result was a complete rout of the temple, but there was one PC death and at one point in the fight I feared a TPK.

"Good guys":
Cle9/Ftr1
Mnk10
Cle4/Rog6
Ftr10
Pal9
Wiz8/Ftr2
Ftr8
Brd4/Rog3 (Redithidoor)

"Bad guys":
Kelashein
Nilbool
Urlurg
three errated large skum
five Kuo-Toa Ftr1
Huge Water Elemental

My players were well prepared with everyone Waterwalking and Waterbreathing, along with other buff spells (grace, strength, etc...). The temple was prepared for trouble (3 rounds to react) while the group fought with Ookamaan. Nibool made the most of his "buff time" getting mirror image, armor and shield going. Kelashein on the otherhand doesn't really have a great spell selection, as published, however she did get off a prayer, freedom of movement and waterwalking. (The lack of a memorized dispel magic, by any spellcaster, was a little dissapointing as I'd hoped for at least the chance to dispell the PC's waterwalking). As the players decended the stairs two of the Kuo-Toa blew the horns and summoned the huge elemental.

I think my players downfall came when they became log jammed in the corridor leading into the temple. The huge water temple blocked the end of the corridor with his size and reach. This creature is deadly with its +17/+12/+7 (2d10+10 dmg) attacks it really knocked the heck out of anthing that came near. Two large skum managed to swim beneath the players and attack those in the corridor from the rear.

The PCs then made the mistake of seperating when the wizard dimension door'ed past the elemental to the altar taking with him the the highest level fighter. The wizard and fighter made short work of Kelashein but then ran into trouble from Nibool, Urlurg, the last remaining large skum and the kuo-toa warriors. The temple battle lasted around 8-10 rounds and when the "dust settled" there was one PC death (the Pal9, killed by a critical hit from a nearly dead large skum) and several "near misses" as two others were brought to negative hit points and a couple others were running scared for a round or two. IMO, the biggest dangers in my battle were (in order): Huge Water Elemental, large skum, Nilbool, Urlurk, Kelashein, Kuo-Toa warriors.

Good luck ... but if the Water Temple is even a little prepared the battle could be very dangerous.

Oh, and don't forget that if your PC is water walking in the Temple and is unfortunate enough to get's stunned, or knocked unconscious, then he drops his weapon ... splash ... into the water.

Edited by: Trithereon at: 4/16/03 12:17:35 am
Killiak 
Here to stay
(4/16/03 2:36 am)
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Re: the water temple seems too easy...
Just as a little side note from me;
With all due respect but I think Monte was smoking when he wrote up the prepared spell lists of several characters. Any cleric who has the level to cast Divine Power will have it memorized. I think this is especially true for the Temple clerics since there can be an attack at any time. The spell lists should be ready for battle at all times.
This makes Kelashein alot more dangerous. With better strenght and a second attack, it is a 35% increase in danger. When they expect trouble it's pump time!

Kylearanon
Here for a while
(4/16/03 4:59 am)
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Re: the water temple seems too easy...
Hey Killiak, you said that 2 bad guys should do a grapple together. Can you use aid another with grappling ???

And, in general, (I never used it so far) aid another gives +2 on check, right ?

Kyle

P.S.: I wondered about the spell lists, as well. I use E-Tools to remake most characters (spell lists mostly) and as a side effect can print those little Stat Blocks, which come in handy in battle ...

Killiak 
Here to stay
(4/16/03 3:09 pm)
Reply
Re: the water temple seems too easy...
Yes, that is entirely possible.
Another tactic is that one of the guys draws the AoO, so that the second has a "free" attempt at the grapple. And if they have reach; that makes it all the easier!

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