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Author
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Comment
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(4/17/03 6:45 am)
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Preparing for 3.5E
I know it's still a good long ways out, but I wanted to start laying some groundwork for the 3.5E "conversion manual" for Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.
It's a fairly major undertaking, on par with (or even exceeding) the originaly Errata run through. I would like to recommend that we tackle it in pieces, and would like to ask for two volunteers to take "lead" roles in looking after the conversion of Part 1 (Hommlet) and Part 2 (The Temple of All-Consumption). I, myself, am volunteering to tackle Part 3. Others would definatley be encouraged to participate, either as a formal part of one section's "team", or as general contributors.
As well, I would like to inject a philosophy into how this conversion is done. As much as is possible, I would like to keep the converted versions of PCs as close as absolutely possible to their original forms. No "I like this spell better", no "this guy would be cool with"...and no use of non-core. This is intended to be "If 3.5 Edition was out when Return was written, how would it have read?"
Thought and opinions quite welcome at this point. We've plenty of lead time, so we can discuss this thoroughly before the time comes, but I would like to be organized and prepared. Also, I would ask that those who participate in the conversion actually own the books in question...there are subtle but real differences with the SRD at times, and I'd like everyone to have genuinely gotten their hands on the rules, and actually read them! (mine are already on pre-order).
Oh, and Monte Cook...if you're reading this, I'd love to have any thoughts, ideas and insights you might have...especially when it comes to how we might let an unsuspecting world of gamers know that there's a "3.5 compatability manual" available, and thus that RttToEE is just all that much MORE playable than it's other 3.0 module counterparts.
Fire away.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
HeresDaryl
Here for a while
(4/17/03 7:10 am)
Reply
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I'm Spartacus!
When the time comes and I get my mitts on the books I will gladly join a section 'team'. I don't think I could commit to devoting the time neccessary to take the lead on one of these sections though...
but count me in
Daryl
Edit: got to learn punctuation and give up the extra-long run on sentences!
Edited by: HeresDaryl at: 4/18/03 12:27:27 am
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Fillerbunny34
Here for a while
(4/17/03 10:26 am)
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No, I'm Spartacus!
I second that motion. I doubt that I could commit enough time to 'take charge' of an entire section, but I will gladly help with any bits and pieces which are available to be delegated.
And I agree, Andorax. It could be very easy to think "oh, well I'll just add ONE little tweak....", and to end up with basically a whole different set of content. Having seen what 3.5 details have been released so far, it shouldn't be too hard to do the updates whilst keeping everyone/thing true to form.
The burning is love Edited by: Fillerbunny34 at: 4/17/03 2:43:49 pm
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Cordo Crowfoot
Here to stay
(4/17/03 4:17 pm)
Reply
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Re: No, I'm Spartacus!
I will volunteer as a section lead. I would prefer Part 1 but am flexible.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(4/28/03 6:27 am)
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Re: No, I'm Spartacus!
Ok then...nobody else interested in taking charge?
I will, tenatively, act as section lead for everything starting with Rastor and going forward. Thank you, Cordo, for offering to take charge of Part I.
Will still need lots of help here...I'm hoping, when the time comes, you'll all pitch in.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
 Infiniti2000
Still here? Wow.
(4/28/03 6:48 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: No, I'm Spartacus!
I will tentatively volunteer as section lead for part 2 (CRM). I have to admit though that I will (hopefully) be busy in the CRM at that point, but I know the CRM almost by heart now after going through it for errata, so it shouldn't be too difficult.
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Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(4/29/03 2:00 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: No, I'm Spartacus!
I've been a little out of touch, but if Infiniti2K can't make it, I'll be happy to go point on the CRM.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(4/29/03 6:47 am)
Reply
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Re: No, I'm Spartacus!
Perhaps you two could gang up on it together? After all, it is the most creature and statblock (and thus, 3.5 conversion work) intensive...want to co-lead on it?
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Siobharek
Still here? Wow.
(4/29/03 11:08 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: No, I'm Spartacus!
No prob, and it's not like Infiniti2K and I haven't worked together before, eh Inf?
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
JDragonatWork
Here for a while
(4/29/03 12:02 pm)
Reply
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Help on CRM
I might be able to help on the CRM stuff as that is what we will be working our way through for a while. (just getting started, thrid attempt at main gate tomorrow)
I just have to see how quickly my group and I switch over.
JDragon
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ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(4/29/03 12:42 pm)
Reply
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Re: Help on CRM
I'd like to help, but I'll be a little busy in RL come August welcoming a new playmate for my 2.5 year-old son 
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(4/29/03 12:49 pm)
Reply
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Re: Help on CRM
I'm hoping everyone with the books will pitch in where they can and when they can. The "section leads" are just in charge of collecting, coalating, and (where applicable) motivating...and are the final "editors" of the information before it gets put together into the 3.5 "conversion manual" for RttToEE.
Then everyone takes a look at that, and it gets picked over some more...because I'm *sure* we'll miss things.
Hopefully, though, when all is said and done, we'll have a very neat, tidy companion to the original module that should make every DM who picks it up's job much easier...especially if we incorporate the Errata into it as well.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Siobharek
Still here? Wow.
(4/29/03 11:15 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Help on CRM
Hey, Zans, congrats! Good for you - and your family of course. Maybe we can persuade Mrs. Andorax to make a plush beholder for the little 'un
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Infiniti2000
Still here? Wow.
(4/30/03 5:32 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Help on CRM
Congratulations, Zans! Woohoo!
Siobharek, sounds like a good plan! It depends on where my group is at the time, but I'd prefer to tackle the sections that they have not yet been. I'll keep you posted on it (or you can read my log, which I need to update this week or weekend with a stray session). Probably, though, I can take on the south gate counterclockwise (anticlockwise for my friends across the pond) halfway and you can take the other half.
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smetzger
Here for a while
(4/30/03 6:20 am)
Reply
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Re: Help on CRM
Congrats Zans.
Although I don't think I can sign on to be a coordinator, I will definantly be contributing statblocks.
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Andorax
A guitar
(6/5/03 8:11 am)
Reply
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Good news
Got some good news for everyone. This just in:
Quote:
You may have been noticing that questions regarding DUNGEONS & DRAGONS(R) v.3.5 backward compatibility have been popping up in the roleplaying game community.
Coinciding with the July release of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS v.3.5 core rulebooks, Wizards of the Coast will offer a free
backward-compatibility guide to enable players to use their existing DUNGEONS & DRAGONS accessory titles with the new core rulebooks. The free guide includes revision notes for the EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK, FIEND FOLIO, MANUAL OF THE PLANES, DEITIES AND DEMIGODS, and MONSTER MANUAL II. It also contains general advice for use with any third edition D&D(R) supplement and makes upgrading to D&D v.3.5 both easy and fun. Players will be able to download the guide from www.wizards.com
The new v.3.5 core rulebooks represent the best-playing DUNGEONS & DRAGONS experience yet and, with backward compatibility, players will be able to take advantage of all that D&D v.3.5 has to offer without hesitation. Carefully designed to build on and expand players' options, v.3.5 will not make key game accessory and supplement titles obsolete.
Shaw Cote'
Public Relations
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
mikebell90
A cup of coffee
(6/5/03 9:43 am)
Reply
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eh, kinda good kinda bad
Good: because it's free and supporting revs in those manuals.
Bad: because it really means these particular books are not being reissued, so they're tossing a bone to those upset about the prospect of getting new PH, DMG, MM1
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Cordo Crowfoot
Faen
(6/16/03 2:51 am)
Reply
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Preparation and some thoughts
What can we do to prepare for the conversion so that once the books get here we can hit the ground running?
A couple of things I can think of:
1) Format for the conversions (page number references, conversion notes, file type, fonts, etc.)
2) Should 3.5E compliant stat blocks be included for an entire creature/NPC if just a small part was updated or just a single note on the change?
3) Is creation of new improved 3.5E compliant stat blocks part of the purview of this project?
4) What is the role of the section coordinator and how can we best make sure that people aren't repeating work?
I think one guiding principle has been established, one which I agree that we should ideally stick with: That the conversion stick close as possible to the original module and intent of the author.
But I think even with this guiding priciple in mind we will see some gray areas:
A) If a 3.5E updated creature is considerably stronger or weaker than it's 3.0 incarnation. Do we go with "original intent" of the creature or the level of challenge?
B) What if being able to qualify for a key prestige class or gain some other plot critical ability would make an NPC higher level?
C) What about key changes to the fabric of the game that effect the NPCs as well. The change in Haste is a good example... What about the potion of Haste that some of the Clerics keep? Should they be switched out since their utility is highly arguable now? Quicken spell metamagic feat is also more valuable in the 3.5E environment, and few of the high level clerics have it, while in 3.5E it may be a no-brainer...
Just some food for thought and discussion...
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
msherman
Faen
(6/16/03 3:59 am)
Reply
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Re: Preparation and some thoughts
Quote:
A) If a 3.5E updated creature is considerably stronger or weaker than it's 3.0 incarnation. Do we go with "original intent" of the creature or the level of challenge?
B) What if being able to qualify for a key prestige class or gain some other plot critical ability would make an NPC higher level?
One area I think this module is rather weak is in setting challenge/encounter levels; a lot of the areas are rated at a certain EL assuming that all the locals are glued to the floor, but since they move around and work together, an area listed as EL5 may actually be EL7 when the bad guys mobilize. The main gate comes to mind.
Since it's already a crap shoot getting a consistent EL out of it, I'd say it's not worth the bother of trying to keep the ELs/CRs constant; just stick with the original intent, unless there's a really easy swap to make to bring the EL back in line.
Quote:
C) What about key changes to the fabric of the game that effect the NPCs as well. The change in Haste is a good example... What about the potion of Haste that some of the Clerics keep? Should they be switched out since their utility is highly arguable now? Quicken spell metamagic feat is also more valuable in the 3.5E environment, and few of the high level clerics have it, while in 3.5E it may be a no-brainer...
Here I'd say we should be a bit aggressive with changes. The players are going to be taking advantage of the new options in 3.5e, so the bad guys should, too. This applies to the feat examples given, and also, IMO, the new PrCs.
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Andorax
Verrik
(6/16/03 7:25 am)
Reply
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Re: Preparation and some thoughts
Some good points, Cordo. Here's my thoughts:
Touching both on format and CR/EL, one of the things that greatly simplifies the entire process is that many of the creatures in the adventure are only stated as references to the MM. As such, the most we will need to do with many of them is a possible adjustment to their hit points.
I would strongly recommend that, instead of an outright "reroll", you keep the "variance from average" and adjust to the new average.
Say, for example, a creature used to have 6d8+6 hp (average of 30), but in the 3.5 MM they have 6d8+12 (got a con boost, new average of 36). If the module had one of these creatures with 32 hps, they're "2 above average", and the new incarnation would ahve 38...again, 2 above average.
If there is a change to an actual NPC (something with a statblock in the back), I would like to see a complete replacement statblock...yes, even if the changes are minor...and as a formatting rule, I would like to see the changes to the original in bold, since italics are already being used in the statblocks (yes, I know bold is as well...but as headers, not to set content text apart).
This allows the DM to see, at a glance, what was changed.
I would also like to see the statblocks include one thing that was very much missing from the original...a reference BACK to the module for the location the creature is most likely to be found in.
As for having 3.5 "compliant" stat blocks...I'm not entirely sure what you mean...but if, by that, you mean to include things like BAB, Grapple bonus, and such...absolutely! Best resource possible.
As I understand it, the plan is that the final version of the conversion will be a .PDF file. If we have a volunteer to be the compilor/editor for this, I would recommend we use whatever format and posting method(s) would be easiest and most convenient for him/her.
The section coordinator...basically, this job is the one who is ultimately responsible for seeing to it that everything in their section gets done, has the final responsibility for checking it over, and making sure it's as right as they can make it.
As for making sure people aren't repeating work...as SC for Part III, I intend to ask if anyone intends to work on Part III, and what they want to do. I'll parsel out sections of Part III on a first-come, first-served basis, check in (and check over) their work as it comes in, and then do myself what otherwise doesn't get done. One of the first things I'll be doing is to assemble a full checklist of what does need done.
Ok...now as for some grey areas you ask about:
A) We need to have a mind to appropriate ELs here. Here is my proposed guideline:
1) If a creature's CR has declined, leave it as-is. The module will not suffer from a few lighter encounters.
2) If a creature's CR has increased by only 1, leave it as-is. Consistency is more valuable here than maintaining exact difficultly levels.
3) If a creature's CR has increased by 2 or more, AND that creature was already = or above the "appropriate" CR for that part of the adventure, then we need to replace it, downscale it, or come up with some other alternative to balance the situation out. Outright changes of this sort are left to the Section Coordinator (SC)'s judgement initially, the outright changes will be noted in the draft version (and all are welcome to discuss it). I would propose that, should we fail to achieve consensus, the final "vote" will be between the SCs and the Compilor/Editor, with the relevant SC for that section holding a tie-breaking vote if need be.
B) It is highly unlikely that any prestige class will be raised in requirements such that the NPC would become higher level. If that were the case, however, then the same guidelines with a higher-CR creature (above) apply. At present, I can only recall three Prestige Classes being used in the entire module. Assassin, Blackguard, and Doomdreamer. The former two are unlikely to change in terms of requirements, and the latter is obviously unchanged.
C) Kept to a minimum, as always. A potion of Haste may not be as obvious or optimal a choice as before, but it remains useful (both to the NPC and as loot), and it retains the same GPV for the encounter.
If there is an obvious, extreme discrepancy in utility...something who's strategy hinged on such an item or circumstance, follow the guidelines above for "Outright Changes".
I already can anticipate one in my own area. The Salamander Noble has an item of haste/speed that he uses "in order to make full attacks and get off a spell-like ability fireball each round". It is my intention to see if he qualifies for the 3.5 iteration of "Quicken Spell-like Ability", and if so, add it to his feat list, and propose this as an "outright change".
Outright changes aren't a TERRIBLE thing, but they should be kept to only the biggest, most obvious "payoffs". One example I can think of is the Doomdreamer from the Recovered Temple (again, my area) who is a Sorceror/Cleric/Doomdreamer. I intend to rework him as a Sorc/Cleric/Mystic Theurge/Doomdreamer (in fact, I believe I have already, based on the web article, and posted him as such), since it's a logical choice for a Sorc/Cleric.
By and large, if an outright change is called for, make it only if there's a solid good reason to. Otherwise, let's keep this as close to the original as reasonably possible.
SC's, use your best judgement here. Remember, ANYONE can propose a change, but it's the SCs who filter those changes through.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
ZansForCans
Giant
(6/16/03 11:53 am)
Reply
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Re: Preparation and some thoughts
My thoughts fall pretty much along with Andorax. I think it will be unlikely that any NPC statblock from the appendix will not need at least a minor tweak, although with a ton of clerics where the changes are reported to be minor, perhaps I'll be surprised 
Also, technically, 3.0 monsters will work with 3.5 for the most part. So another option for dealing with a radical shift in CR due to real changes in the underlying stats for a creature is to just stick with the 3.0 version, suitably tweaked for minor rule changes.
Quote:
As I understand it, the plan is that the final version of the conversion will be a .PDF file. If we have a volunteer to be the compilor/editor for this, I would recommend we use whatever format and posting method(s) would be easiest and most convenient for him/her.
I'll have to see how things go with the timescale, but I'd be interested in doing this if I have the time. I've enjoyed doing the Errata/FAQ conversion so far. I won't outright volunteer right now since I will have other constraints, but if no one else does, I'll keep it in mind when things start rolling.
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