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ZansForCans 
Faen
(7/11/03 9:55 pm)
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Re: Questions brought up by Chatrilon
b2) I just want to throw my own 2cp in here as well. I completely agree with Andorax in that we should highlight every change clearly, even if it's just a name change.

Not only is it consistent, but it helps everyone make the change to 3.5 faster. The first time you see that new name when scanning the 3.5 changes, you might look it up. But now you've learned something new and you can gloss over that highlighted bit later.

Without that highlighted, you might not notice it until you really are using the character. You still are going to look it up if you haven't see it, but now it's possibly during a session.


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Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/12/03 4:04 am)
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Re: Questions brought up by Chatrilon
Ok yes I can see that point, and it is very valid. I'll make that change to Chat.

Also just to confirm 100% there is no need to mark something that is deleted, correct? Just take it out of the statblock? For example 3rd level Rogues such as Greshta no longer have Uncanny Dodge...

msherman
Faen
(7/12/03 6:30 am)
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Re: Questions brought up by Chatrilon
Quote:
msherman, can you let us know what colors are legible for you then?
Fair question. The easy to read ones are the colours that contrast aggresively with the dark grey background: white, orange**, yellow, and lime. Less easy, but still not terrible, are green, gray, teal* and olive. The rest of them I have to highlight to read. Even among the easy ones, though, telling the difference between them is difficult. In particular, unless they're next to each other, I have a lot of trouble telling the yellow from lime.

*Yes, I know I complained more vigorously about the teal originally; since teal was proposed for changed text, which would probably cover a significant proportion of the text in the doc and is actually the part of the text I'm most interested in reading, it's important that it be in a colour that's not at all challenging to read. I'd imagine serious eye strain trying to read a full conversion of the module that was about 40% teal.

In general, communicating information through colour alone should be avoided. For something like what red was being proposed for, a big noisy tag like <???> might be enough. Even ignoring the colour blind readers, bear in mind that a lot of folks will be printing this doc out on a black-and-white printer.

** Monte, if you're following this thread, the Orange on Dark Grey that you use in your ezboard stylesheet isn't great. I think it's a gamma-related issue -- for some reason, I can read that easily at home, but it's very difficult on the monitor at my office.

Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/12/03 11:25 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: Questions brought up by Chatrilon
"So, have the books shipped yet? I just checked Amazon, and it claims they're still not released."

No! >:

I think the earliest ship date is the 18th. I think it's a plan by WotC to help out the LFGS by artificially delaying shipment. Or, maybe they are trying to have it coincide with GenCon. Outside the US, everyone already has their books from what I understand.

Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/12/03 3:31 pm)
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Re: Questions brought up by Chatrilon
The red portions aren't going to make it to the final document msherman. They are just placeholders within the stat block for notes until the stat block is finalized.

Also I don't think the books are on sale in Japan yet. I got mine through another channel. I may call and check though as I am intrigued.

Andorax
Verrik
(7/14/03 9:19 am)
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Re: Questions brought up by Chatrilon
Ok, command decision time.

We will use lime for the changes in the text, and then orange for the end-commentary.

Yes, there IS a place for noting what's removed from the text...in the Note section at the end of each statblock (refer back to my last posted statblock). We can make a command decision at 'publish' time whether or not to include these in the "final product", but they should be included, for now.

So it's statblock (with lime changes), then lime note of deletions, then orange list of commentary.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Daeinar
Faen
(7/14/03 10:21 am)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
For the record, the books seem to be on sale. At least I am holding them in my hands right now, and I am from Germany, for that matter.

But what was I going to say... oh, right. I am still running a group through the moathouse, so I'd volunteer to do some of the conversions in that part for now.

Daeinar

ZansForCans 
Faen
(7/15/03 7:57 pm)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
Another stat block question prompted by Daeinar's post (and I see it in CC's Chat above) in the correction thread. Does the 'official' stat block reproduce the Atk and Full Atk lines if they are the same? CC's example from the DMG above has a 10th level cleric whose BAB is high enough for multiple attacks. Just curious because not having it reduces some 'noise' in the block listing.


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Daeinar
Faen
(7/15/03 10:39 pm)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
The Full Attack entry is in there even if it is the same.

madfox
Verrik
(7/16/03 5:56 am)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
I have glanced through this topic, so I might have missed it, but what about the new domains in this scenario and above all the madness rating? With the difficulty to increase the DC of spells in the new edition, do you think that the madness domain is too good? What about the rage spell? Should it be replaced with the real new Rage spell in the PHB? What about the other spells? Before anybody can do any real conversion on any cleric with a madness rating or new domains, we need to come up with a commonly accepted conversion of these. I don't have the books at hand or else I would give it a shot right now...

madfox
Verrik
(7/16/03 8:30 am)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
Madness Domain:
1) Lesser Confusion
2) Tasha's Hideous Laughter
3) Rage As per the same spell in 3.5
4) Confusion
5) Bolts of bedevilment*
6) Phantasmal Killer
7) Insanity
8) Tharizdun's Maddening Scream*
9) Weird

- Random action should obviously be replaced with Lesser Confusion.
- Replacing Tharizdun's Touch with the laughter spell is a bit of a personal preference. First of all, in 3.5 the effects of Hideous Laugghter compared to the T's Touch is exactly the same. Secondly, it saves us the need to convert a spell. I would change M into DF and the description of laughter in mad giggling. Of course, Tasha should be replaced with Tharizdun ;) Touch of idiocy would also be on it's place here. Opinions?
- No need for two nearly identical spells. An increase in range in return for a decrease in power.
- Tharizdun's Maddening Scream as in the book is rather weak compared to other spells
* I find both these spells rather weak. 3.5 has many great spells that would fit perfectly in this list. What about symbol of insanity, feeblemind, mind fog, otto's irresistable dance? Or do you think we should keep these spells?

Edited by: madfox at: 7/16/03 8:34 am
Andorax
Verrik
(7/16/03 9:17 am)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
If the Madness domain does not appear in 3.5E, I think we should probably keep it as-is. Yes, it's pretty viscous and nasty, but at the very least it's not being backed up by other enhancements (such as the Doomdreamer's pre-requisite Necromancy Focus).

I'll have to get my hands on the 3.5 books before I can comment on the Rage spell. If it's mechanically similar enough, it makes sense to use the PHB Rage spell. If it's radically different (in level, approach, what have you), it might be wiser to rename the spell in RttToEE to "Tharizdun's Rage" and leave it as-is.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

madfox
Verrik
(7/16/03 10:35 am)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
Rage in 3.5 has a medium range, it can affect 1 willing living creature per 3 levels and it has a duration of concentration + 1 rd/lvl (D). The benefits of the spell though are halved (+2 strenth and constitution, +1 to will), while the penalties remain the same (-2 AC). As with the old rage, once the spell ends the subject is not fatigued. It is a 3rd level wizard spell and 2nd level bard spell. If anything, it is a slight powerboost, but IMO they are close enough.

Andorax
Verrik
(7/16/03 11:51 am)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
Non-personal, half-modifiers, multiple targets?

Seems a significant enough change to be it's own separate spell, at least to me. I would recommend the rename (Tharizdun's Rage), but I'm willing to bend if others are particular about it.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

ZansForCans 
Faen
(7/16/03 12:17 pm)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
The AC penalty is not a part of the RttToEE version. Does the 3.5 spell say anything about restricted actions like Barbarian rage? I'd lean toward keeping it as is a well with a new name. It sounds like too much is different.

I'd also suggest keeping Touch unmodified in the listing as well, although adding comments about its similarity to THL in the orange comments is a great idea to help out those that do want to tweak/balance more.

Basically, I don't think issues of balance differences between 3.0 and 3.5 should really come into the conversion proper. We're not really going to be play-testing this, so I'm uncomfortable with tweaking more than we have to at first. Instead let's focus on the mechanical differences in the 'official' part of the text and add those comments to the design notes at the bottom. Maybe 9/10 times DM's will use particularly obvious additional changes that we note, but I still think that's the best way to go about it.

My 2cp, of course :)


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Delgar2
Human
(7/16/03 2:27 pm)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
The 3.5 version seems like it would be great for the Clerics of RttToEE.

It could be a good boost for several of their cronies. I guess it will just come down to DM preference.

Whatever the board decides!

Delgar

Andorax
Verrik
(7/16/03 2:40 pm)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
Delgar2, it's not a question of whether or not it would be a 'good' spell choice...in point of fact, I would happily recommend it (if it were a regular Cleric spell) to any DM running this module...as a suggested change.

However, the point of the 3.5 conversion is to make a fully 3.5-compatable product without changing anything that we don't *have* to change.

Believe me, there's a lot of us who will swap out the 3.5 "potion of Haste" that many of these clerics are carrying for something far more useful when we actually RUN the adventure. But the 3.5 conversion doc will still show clerics with "Potion of Haste" in their inventory (unless there isn't one anymore...anyone confirm this?).

As such, unless there's strong objection and argument that 3.5 Rage is "sufficiently similar" to RttToEE Rage, I'm going to continue my support for a rename to Tharizdun's Rage, it's own separate spell.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Delgar2
Faen
(7/16/03 3:19 pm)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
Although you wouldn't have to do any conversion if you just called it Rage and use the one from the 3.5 book?

Like I said either way, I'll conform to convention!

Delgar

ZansForCans 
Faen
(7/16/03 6:52 pm)
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Re: Preparing for 3.5E
Although I too don't have the books yet, so can't say for sure, but I think it's very unlikely that any of the spells or items have to be changed at all for 3.5. That's one of the good things about this 'revision' (or 'edition', depending on where you fall ;) ). The spells don't have to be changed one bit to be mechanically correct. The issue of changing them for balance is a tricky one, and as I mentioned above, I'd lean toward giving DM's advice on what to try, but not explicitly changing any of the functions in the official part of the conversion text.


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Gyradon
Faen
(7/16/03 9:04 pm)
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just checking
I am still game to help out, if someone wants to give me an assignment

graethynne@yahoo.com

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