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madfox Verrik (7/17/03 3:44 am) Reply	Re: just checking As Monte Cook already pointed out, 3.5 is something between a revision and a new edition. Some things will need to be changed or at the very least people should think about it, even if mechanically it still works. The madness rating for example works fine in 3.5, with the reduction in power of spell focus, it should be clear though that the benefit has become slightly more powerful without any change in the downside of a madness rating. The addition of new spells and the change of some spells would also mean that we really need to reconsider some of spell selections of the domains. Tharizdun's touch and Tasha's Hideous Laughter are a prime example, both spells have exactly the same effect game mechanically (no actions, but not helpless) and the same duration. The only thing that differs is the range. I hate it when two different spells are nearly identical. It causes confusion and while Tharizdun might like it, I personally do not. Some of the items, spells and skills have changed considerably. If there is any specialist wizard in this adventure, the person converting that character will be simply forced to select new spells. Keeping the same spells, skills, feats and items in some other situations might look real silly, because the new rules make their proposed use impossible or real weak. I agree that we should strife to keep to remain as close as possible, but some things will need to be changed. Why else even bother conversing the thing?
Siobharek Verrik (7/17/03 4:33 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Preparing for 3.5E I think both sides of the argument have merits. In the cases where it looks really odd, we should discuss it before making the change, but in other cases, we should look out lest we optimize teh various NPCs. So what if a potion of haste isn't as good as it used to be? Xaod took Combat Reflexes, didn't he? Siobharek ...it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
msherman Faen (7/17/03 4:59 am) Reply	Re: Preparing for 3.5E *Quote:* Believe me, there's a lot of us who will swap out the 3.5 "potion of Haste" that many of these clerics are carrying for something far more useful when we actually RUN the adventure. But the 3.5 conversion doc will still show clerics with "Potion of Haste" in their inventory (unless there isn't one anymore...anyone confirm this?). This contradicts a previous example given by one of the section leads (I can't recall who, though) where Haste was swapped for Quicken Spell (or perhaps Quicken Spelllike Ability). Do we really have consensus on this point?
madfox Verrik (7/17/03 5:02 am) Reply	Re: Preparing for 3.5E A potion of haste is still worth something, though pure wizards/sorcerers might balk at that notion. There are several items and spells combo's that simply do not work anymore. A good example of an item/class combination that simply does not work and which come to my mind immidiately would be a monk with boots of striding and springing. The boots give a +10 enhancement bonus to movement and a +5 competence bonus on the jump skill. The problem is that the monk's class bonus to speed is an enhancement bonus as well. Hence the boots do not work anymore for monks. I realize there are no monks villains in this scenario though, but I am sure there are similar examples (such as none humanoid wizards with alter self who use that spell to look like a human) Side note - spider climb is now a 2nd level spell, this has a considerable effect on the networth of slipers of spider climb and cloacks of arachnaid. Which makes me wonder what to do with items that become more then 2x as expensive or a lot cheaper? I am inclined to keep them the same, but with treasure balance being so important that might not be too good an idea...
msherman Faen (7/17/03 5:07 am) Reply	Boots of Springing, Striding and Rules Changing *Quote:* The boots give a +10 enhancement bonus to movement and a +5 competence bonus on the jump skill. The problem is that the monk's class bonus to speed is an enhancement bonus as well. Hence the boots do not work anymore for monks. Is the same true for Barbarians? The Bbn in my party has a pair of boots, and they're her second most prized posession (next to the Sword of Earth, of course). Her movement in 3.0 is 70'. Ugh. Edited by: msherman at: 7/17/03 5:07 am
Infiniti2000 Verrik (7/17/03 7:15 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: just checking Gyradon: "I am still game to help out, if someone wants to give me an assignment" We'll take you! You're now on the fun part of the Main Gate. If you want to be moved, let me know.
Andorax Verrik (7/17/03 7:54 am) Reply	Re: just checking Msherman, that's me contradicting myself...although I'm more than happy to defend that contradiction. In the case of the Noble Salamander with the Ring of Haste, and that Ring of Haste being substituted for a "Quicken Spell-like Ability" feat, the reason is not that I'm trying to vary from the original, but that I'm specifically trying to keep it as close to the original as possible. Sound confusing? This is the sort of area where we really need to use those "orange notes" and hash out consensus. My specific and particular reasoning, in the case of the Noble Salamander, is that he has a tactics section where it very specifically lays out his tactics...and that they consist of making a full attack and blasting with a fireball each round. This tactic is not reproducable with Haste, but is possible with another power which is made available in 3.5, so I am trying to preserve the tactics, as described, as best I can. As with everything through this, it's a judgement call. Ultimately, my goal is to have the 3.5 conversion document be as close to the original as can be accomplished, so long as absolute 3.5 compatability is not compromised. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
msherman Faen (7/17/03 9:16 am) Reply	Re: just checking Andorax, yeah, I understand that. I think that the same can be said of any cleric carrying a potion of Haste, though -- Haste in 3.0 was just so obviously useful for spell casters to cast twice per round, that IMO any cleric with a potion of haste who didn't explicitly have tactics saying they'd give the potion to someone else should have the potion replaced with something like Quicken. I agree, though, it is a judgement call, and it's probably best to not try to set any hard and fast rules ahead of time, but just hash it out on a case by case basis as we go.
Taxman66 Giant (7/17/03 11:08 am) Reply	Re: just checking As an, admitidly partial, observer I tend to agree with Msherman. However, I would suggest (prefer) a lean towards the more conservative side. That is don't convert with the intention of matching the 'tactics' but rather of immediately converting the stuff. For example: 1) Just change the value of the slippers of spider climbing and leave be. In the end I don't think the few extra $ makes a big deal. 2) As for the Salamander, I'd prefer to keeping it to what he's got by the book. Now, if he gets an extra feat from somewhere then by all means pick up the quicken ability... otherwise leave it alone. Allowing him the ability to match the 3e Haste tactics is not a fair conversion since the PCs' access to the same capability is no longer there... thus full attacking + launching a fireball becomes a significantly harder challange in 3.5 than in 3.0. Taxman "It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
Siobharek Verrik (7/17/03 11:14 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: just checking That's a very good point, Tax. We can't let the monsters get superior abilities in order for them to stay true to the previous adventure. Everyone's gonna sit with the 3.0 adventure in front of tehm. They will be able to see what has been changed, and for the new players down the road, who have not played 3.0, the boards will be here, and crusty old-timers will tell them how Haste was in their day... Got carried away there, but as it has been said a few times: It comes down to a series of judgement calls based on the overall strategy of keeping the conversion as close to the original as possible. With regards to the haste potions: We might be able to whip up a potion of Quicken, but Haste 3.5 is still pretty good: Extra move, improved AC, Atk, and Reflex saves (never a cleric's strong suit), so why not let them keep it? Siobharek ...it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
Jesse Lowe Human (7/17/03 11:17 am) Reply	Conversion Document? On a related note, does anyone know when the official conversion document is supposed to be released on the WotC site?
Siobharek Verrik (7/17/03 11:39 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Conversion Document? July 24th at midnight, EST. Get the story here. Siobharek ...it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
Daeinar Faen (7/17/03 11:29 pm) Reply	Re: Preparing for 3.5E For those of you you have not already noticed. The D&D v3.5 Accessory Booklet is available here. Daeinar
madfox Verrik (7/18/03 12:55 am) Reply	Re: Boots of Springing, Striding and Rules Changing quote]Is the same true for Barbarians? The Bbn in my party has a pair of boots, and they're her second most prized posession (next to the Sword of Earth, of course). Her movement in 3.0 is 70'. Ugh[/quote] Nop, barbarians movement increase is unnamed. Still, in 3.5 the barbarians move will 'only' be 55 ft in light armour (I assume he has the dash feat). Remember that the boots though do not stack with many of the movement increasing spells and they also do not work on fly, climb and swim speed.
ZansForCans Faen (7/24/03 9:00 pm) Reply	Re: Madness domain I know this seems mostly settled now, but I just noticed this... Scanning through the conversion document, I just noticed that the Madness domain, as listed in Deities & Demigods has the recommendation to replace the rage spell with the one listed in the 3.5 PHB. Unfortunately, I don't have Deities, but I'm curious if the rage listed there is exactly the same as that in RttToEE (one would hope it is). In any case, I think I'd still prefer that we keep big-T's Madness closer to the original by adding the named version of rage. Looking closely at the 3.5 spell now, it's clear that this will be nearly useless for spell casters to use on themselves (which is an option with RttToEE's version) as it explicitly says it works like barbarian rage except for the fatigue. This means no skills that require thought and no spell casting. Since the spell itself requires concentration now, it would end the next round if you targeted yourself! It's obviously meant for a support buff rather than a personal buff. With many clerics on their own at times, it seems more in line with the original intent if we keep the spell as it is in the adventure. Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo
madfox Verrik (7/25/03 1:03 am) Reply	Re: Madness domain *Quote:* Scanning through the conversion document, I just noticed that the Madness domain, as listed in Deities & Demigods has the recommendation to replace the rage spell with the one listed in the 3.5 PHB. Unfortunately, I don't have Deities, but I'm curious if the rage listed there is exactly the same as that in RttToEE (one would hope it is). Shhhh, not reading your threads now are we? This has been discussed in this thread (for me at page 5). The concensus was to keep it the same as the old version. Personally though I agree with WotCs advice to change it to prevent confusion.
msherman Faen (7/25/03 5:15 am) Reply	Re: Madness domain Madfox is right, we've discussed this before, but I think this is new info that warrants reopening the decision. The consensus to keep Tharizdun's Rage as before was predicated on an assumption that WotC wasn't going to make any sort of official statement on Madness in 3.5: Andorax: *Quote:* If the Madness domain does not appear in 3.5E, I think we should probably keep it as-is. Zans for Cans: *Quote:* Although I too don't have the books yet, so can't say for sure, but I think it's very unlikely that any of the spells or items have to be changed at all for 3.5. However, WotC has officially stated that Madness should use the new 3.5 Rage, according to the conversion PDF. I think we should be consistant with that document.
Andorax Verrik (7/25/03 6:15 am) Reply	Re: Madness domain He's right. As much as I dislike the idea, he is correct in that there is official word as to how to convert the Madness Domain, as per WotC, and that we should follow it. My advice, then, is to keep Rage as Rage (as per the new 3.5 PHB), but add a note in "Appendix 5" that DMs should review the clerics' spell lists and consider memorizing something else in lieu of Rage for the more isolated of clerics. I will be editing the Recovered Temple entries accordingly. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
ZansForCans Faen (7/25/03 7:15 am) Reply	Re: Madness domain Hey now, I did put that disclaimer in the first sentence of my post I know all about the previous discussion I guess I'm comfortable with conforming to the 3.5 conversion doc, as long as we have good and specific discussion under the block for the domain about how the spell is changed and how it affects clerics' tactics. I'd even go so far as to note that the original spell will work fine under 3.5 and could be considered due to the fact that it is on many a spell list. Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo
msherman Faen (7/25/03 7:18 am) Reply	Re: Madness domain *Quote:* Hey now, I did put that disclaimer in the first sentence of my post I know all about the previous discussion Heh... I completely missed that that was you posting that comment, Zans... I used your own argument against you...