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madfox
Still here? Wow.
(4/23/03 5:46 am)
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Re: Hmm..
In short: when facing a succubi the PCs should better not succeed in dimensional ancher spell or else they will be in deep @#%$. Then again, they might be lucky and have a dispel evil prepared.

Madfox, who ones had a 10th PC in a 10 lvl munchkin party who surivived against a pit fiend for 10 rounds with the loss of 1 PC (and that only because he had a Mordekain's Energy Buffer running).

mirrorsh
Here to stay
(4/23/03 10:47 am)
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Re: ALMOST
Quote:
that ability IS taken into account yes...

just like a high level mage can summon a high CR monster, the ability is taken into the mage's CR


I seriously doubt that. The Balor is a full _NINE_ CR higher than the Succubus. The CR of any critters a mage can summon are equal to or below the CR of the mage himself.

Yes there's only a 10% chance of success.
Yes theoretically the DM may decide that after the party is destroyed the succubus must `propitiate' in some `manner' to avert the balor's wrath.

Whatever.

Fact remains that *IF* the succubus actually manages to pull the summons off, the party is now faced with a CR 18 critter to deal with. Once that happens, the EL of that encounter skyrockets through the roof, I don't care what you say.

Now maybe if you were talking about a 20th level party fighting a succubus, and she summoned a balor. Hey, not a problem, they can handle it.

But for a party 8-12th level, that balor will wipe them out if the summons is successful.

Fillerbunny34
Here for a while
(4/23/03 11:31 am)
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Re: ALMOST
Quote:
But for a party 8-12th level, that balor will wipe them out if the summons is successful.


And hence the thread title. To be honest, I think that no XP for the summoned Balor could be defended on a strictly-by-the-rules stance. Whether that would be the right thing for a DM to do is a whole different story, however.

I have to say that if this situation happened in a game I was DMing (and I would be loathe do actually do it, since it really would have such a high chance of wiping out the party), I would go ahead and award XP if they managed to slay the beast. Perhaps it's not strict to the rules, but if they really managed to smack down a CR18 Demon then I couldn't bring myself to not reward them for it.

Now I find myself thinking of situations outwith RTTTOEE where this could happen (I agree with Andorax's view that it would be just wrong to have happen in the Outer Fane). It's an interesting rule, because it allows for a party who should be facing CR9 creatures to suddenly face a CR18 Demon quite legitimately. I wonder what kind of situations there would be where successful use of this particular Succubus ability against a party who are balanced with the Succubus didn't immediately threaten a TPK?


Thrommel or other mod type people : Sorry if this is getting off the RTTTOEE theme. I'd be happy to shift it to a more general area if you wish.

The burning is love

Tenacious B
Here for a while
(4/23/03 1:00 pm)
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Re: ALMOST
Too late, I'm not running a RttToEE but I have read, and use ideas from the module often.

In a non RttToEE game I had a succubus who ended being tagged with a Dim Anchor. Quickly realizing her wings would not out run the missles, spells, and flying of her foe, she dropped behind cover and attempted the summoning.

I made quite a show of it, and the players were rightly terrified. I rolled in the open, and got something in the mid 60's.

She didn't survive the next round.

No question it would have been a possibly campaign ending TPK had I rolled a 10 or less.

She never tried the summoning before, because I felt, as many of you had said, that she had to pay a very high price for the summoning. Running a fairly adult game and using BoVD often, I assumed at least part of her payment to the Balor would be in the form of adult favors. I also considered that the Balor may well take the Succubus back to the abyss with him to collect his payment.

Had she succeeded, I assumed a round or two of bargaining, followed by a DC 15 diplomacy or bluff check for the succubus. The party could run or whatever during the bargaining, but trying to disrupt the talk would likely anger the Balor. Then the Balor would spend most of his hour killing the party (assuming a deal was reached) and then return for his payment. IMC there was a small chance of NPC intervention, but most likely it would have been a TPK.

TB

Caedrel
Here for a while
(4/23/03 6:27 pm)
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Re: Savage Species questions
It's pretty clear most people feel that there's some sort of cost that the succubus would have to pay for summoning a balor - I recall reading in the MM somewhere about how X is reluctant to summon Y because it puts them in their debt somehow. Makes sense to me, but nowhere is it described how this actually works.

Now, that's fine when the succubus is an enemy, but Savage Species lets you run a succubus as a PC, so the question of what payment might be required becomes an important one. It's the same for efreeti, which has been touched on in another thread - does their wish power come at a cost? If there isn't, why don't the efreeti in the module use it to grant wishes to Imix? If there is, what does that mean for characters playing efreet via Savage Species?

Just some questions I thought I'd ask - I have no answers.

deafdungeonmasterRIT
Here to stay
(4/23/03 9:27 pm)
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Hmm
Balor isn't tougher than Pit Fiend.. I think the party will be able to handle Balor.

The only problem when it comes to fighting Balor is it weapon and ability to blow up due to its death..

Otherwise, when you death a balor, you are pretty much set to confront Imix.

If Balor escape, have Hedrack take on Balor alone and personally. He will be so feared that he can be considered to be one of the triad!

Trithereon
Here quite a while
(4/24/03 7:43 am)
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Re: The Succubus : 10% chance for a near-auto TPK?
To be precise, the MM does say that demons (and devils) do not use their summon ability lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when neccesary to save their own lives (or to gain victory or save their own lives - for devils).

The moral of the story: don't corner a succubus unless your feeling lucky or brave.

Quote:
"The only problem when it comes to fighting Balor is it weapon and ability to blow up due to its death.."


Unless you happen to be the unlucky recipient of its Implosion spell-like ability: 20 rounds of Fort Save (DC 22) or die at a 75 foot range.

DreadPirateApollo
Looking around
(4/25/03 2:10 pm)
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The Succubus and the Balor
Well... it happened to my group. The Succubus Panicked and tried to summon the Balor. I kinda freaked, cuz the characters I had DMed for so long were about to be ripped to shreds. So what I did is I said the one she summoned was currently in battle when it was summoned... so it was wounded and UBER-PISSED. The beast appears on the scene with bleeding wounds and in mid swing. It immediately slew the succubus with it's greatsword (The succubus was at 11 HP). Then my character's all spazzed out and jumped in on it. With the Balor only at 42 HP when it was summoned, the battle went by rather swiftly, with minimal damages suffered. Of course I gave only 15% of the Balor's normal XP for it's reduced HP, AND my players were very proud of themselves for defeating the Balor. Went well if you ask me.

:hat Zoot Suit Riotin'

Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(4/25/03 2:23 pm)
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Re: The Succubus and the Balor
Out of curiosity, did anyone die to the Death Throes of the Balor?

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

SSShadowcat7
Here for a while
(4/25/03 8:13 pm)
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Re: The Succubus and the Balor
OK, so far it seems that everyone thinks that if a Balor was actually summoned that the encounter would degenerate into combat almost instantly.

But, does it have to?

Maybe the Balor would take a quick look around, see what's going on, and say to the party, "Look here, puny mortals. She is not worth it. She is now under my protection, for a small price, of course..." at this point it glances at the surely cowering demoness with a horrible grin on it's face, "...so why don't you save yourselves the trouble and go on back where you came from. You have nothing to gain here."

Sure, it's Chaotic Evil, but why waste its resources on this measly group in front of it. Maybe just kill one to prove a point and then run them off with intimidation. It's got a succubus to play with after all.

deafdungeonmasterRIT
Here to stay
(4/25/03 10:02 pm)
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hMM..
Priate.. do you use implosion when Balor died?

JRGiant
Looking around
(4/25/03 10:02 pm)
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Re: The Succubus and the Balor
First off...nicely put Shadowcat. Allow me to pocket that for later. ;)

My take is the succubus would, if the straights were significantly dire, summon the balor. However, knowing the consequences of doing so, she'd probably try every other means at her disposal to escape first. These could include the following:

1) Offer to give up information on Hedrack, the Fane, the cult...etc.
2) Offer information on the location of good loot to more greedy party members.
3) Offer to "seduce" an enemy for more evil characters.
4) TPE or Ethereal Jaunt...but we're assuming a DimLock stops the retreat.
5) Run away, leading the characters to something bigger and nastier than she.
6) Threaten to summon the balor "It probably won't work, but do either of us really want to chance it?"
7) Charm monster on a char with a crappy Will save...take him hostage.

Don't forget she has detect thoughts at will and has probably used it, so she knows what motivates the party. She'll use this to her advantage. I don't picture the succubus as being big with the straight up fight...instead, she'd rather talk her way out of it so she can tempt another mortal another day.

But my feeling is to RP the succubi...if she is backed up against the corner and out of options...well, when falling off a cliff you grab at any handy blade of grass. Summon the balor.:evil

Trithereon
Here quite a while
(4/25/03 10:08 pm)
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Re: The Succubus : 10% chance for a near-auto TPK?
Is it really the concensus of the people who are reading this thread that it you'd run the Summon Tanar'ri ability of the succubus as if it were a called Balor and not a summoned Balor? There's a big difference on how it affects combat, for both the PCs and the succubus.

If the Balor is summoned then:

1) Protection from Evil (and Circle of Protection) prevents the balor from physically attacking.

2) A successful Dispel Magic check against the succubus's caster level will rid yourself of the balor.

3) The succubus is in control and can command the balor to attack, or not attack. It becomes an important barganing chip. However, she'll have to pay for this favor at some later time which to any self-respecting tanar'ri would be loathsome and only done as a last resort.

If the Balor is called then:

1) Protection from Evil (and Circle of Protection) will not prevent the balor from physically attacking.

2) You'd need a spell like Dismissal to send the balor packing.

3) The succubus is at the mercy of the called balor and would have to negotiate as per the Planar Ally spell.

There may be other important differences that I am forgetting. Personally, I think that if you use the Summon Tanar'ri ability of the succubus as a Call Tanar'ri ability (ie Planar Ally spell versus Monster Summoning) then you might think about increasing the CR of the Succubus, as the result of a successful use of its ability would be significantly more difficult.

Just curious is there an official, by-the-book reason to treat the summoned balor as a called monster, as opposed to summoned? I might have missed it and am once again talking out my A$$.

Edited by: Trithereon at: 4/26/03 4:07:57 am
Killiak 
Here to stay
(4/26/03 4:20 am)
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Re: The Succubus : 10% chance for a near-auto TPK?
From the MM, the entries on Tanar'ri and Baatezu;

Quote:

Most Baatezu/Tanar'ri can summon other Baatezu/Tanar'ri as though casting a Summon Monster spell...



In other words; option number One as described by Thrithereon. It makes the combat ALOT less dangerous if you have a few casters around.




Caedrel
Here for a while
(4/26/03 9:27 pm)
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Re: The Succubus : 10% chance for a near-auto TPK?
But there are also some implied differences between the demon's ability and the spell - the hour long duration vs 1 round/level, the sense of obligation of the summoner to the summoned, etc. The distinction IS important, because with Summon Monster, the creature summoned doesn't have much say in what it does - the summoner gets to direct its actions. You don't get that same sense about the Summon Tana'ari ability...

Trithereon
Here quite a while
(4/26/03 9:53 pm)
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Re: The Succubus : 10% chance for a near-auto TPK?
"You don't get that same sense about the Summon Tana'ari ability... "

So, do you believe it should be played as Summoned or Called? The distinction is important. I've mentioned earlier that the Summon Tanar'ri ability specifies that it functions "much like" and then it specifies the differences that you pointed out. Why then assume additional differences that are not specified?

Having obligations and being directly threatened are not the same thing. A summoned balor has to obey the commands of the succubi summoner for that one hour, after which the succubus is then indebted to the balor. A succubus would not ever do this lightly, not if she can teleport away. I'd suspect that she'd never use the ability unless some foolish mortal "anchored" her to the spot.

Edited by: Trithereon at: 4/26/03 9:58:30 pm
Killiak 
Here to stay
(4/27/03 4:22 am)
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Re: The Succubus : 10% chance for a near-auto TPK?
Well, from what I read in it it goes like this;

It IS a Summon Monster spell, but has the exceptions as written in MM, thus has all the weaknesses of such a spell

madfox
Still here? Wow.
(4/27/03 11:26 am)
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Re: The Succubus : 10% chance for a near-auto TPK?
Considering the various protection spells are effected by spell resistances a protection from evil spell might not be enough to block the balor. I do agree though that it will be a summoned creature and not a called being.

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