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Dovan Mageknight
Looking around
(4/29/03 1:25 am)
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Ghost
Ok im Dming a Evil game,and one guy has taken controll of the gost in the inn in Nulb.
The thing is is he gave it a ghost touch wepon and now wants it to kill some one while hes asleep so the blame will be off him.
What I need to know is if the sleeping person will git some way to notice a ghost in the room while hes asleep,and can it just coupdegra him while hes asleep?
Or would I have the ghost do a sneak attack and then see if he lived through that and wakes up and do combat?
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Grumgarr
Here for a while
(4/29/03 4:49 am)
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Re: Ghost
Well, if this is another PC there'll be hell to pay, but hey...it's not my game.
Wat the Ghostly can only attack when he's manifested.
A manifested ghost is visible (though he makes no sound unless he wants to).
Is anyone on watch while the ghost tries his attack?
Otherwise Wat should be able to kill someone easily enough.
A coup de grace after a three round wait should count as a Death Attack, plus double damage for the coup...plus sneak attack damage.
So if the Death Attack or damage alone don't outright kill the victim, they're looking at a very high DC Fort save or die anyway.
Controlling a ghost is no mean feat, though. How is the PC able to do this at all?
Also note that Wat is bound to the inn - he can only perform this murder there. The group aren't going to spend the night in Nulb are they? In the haunted inn?
Grumgarr
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mirrorsh
Here to stay
(4/29/03 4:50 am)
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Re: Ghost
A ghost is probably really quiet, so there'd be no way of noticing him: so he'd do a coup de grace, with sneak attack damage, with a Fort DC 10+Dmg.
There's no one on watch? He has to manifest to attack, so whoever's on watch would SEE that (although he also has Hide, so I'd let him do an opposed Hide vs. Spot). If that failed, however, at best he'd have either a surprise round (partial actions ONLY so no coup de grace --- though he could death attack) or he'd have to hope to roll high on Initiative and go before perhaps the sleeping target was awakened.
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Dovan Mageknight
Looking around
(4/30/03 2:27 am)
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Re: Ghost
Ok I guess a little more info is needed,when the players got to Nulb,they killed the Allip up stairs in the Inn.
Then when they were in combat with Wat (the Ghost) the Cleric in the groop took controll of Wat.
They now have started rebuilding the town (tipical),but descide to leave and let one of the PC's cohorts take over the rebuilding.
The PC Cleric told the Ghost not to attack any one when they left and all was ok.
But then a little while later they came back to inspect the town and the Cleric is realy unhappy with the other PC's cohorts job,so natraly he wants to kill him as punishment.
But he doesnt want to take the fall,he wishes to shift the blame to the Ghost.
So he gave the Ghost a ghost touch wepon and told him to wait till hes sleeping one night and kill him.
First off Wat is a 5rog/asn1 so he could do the studdy for 3 rounds and then death attack.
But the person the PC wants to kill is also a Rog.
So what Im asking as DM's would you give the cohort a chance?
Or is this just something better to just figure he killed him?
And no their are no gaurds,he would just be sleeping alone in him room.
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Grumgarr
Here for a while
(4/30/03 2:57 am)
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How to get a ghost to do your dirty work...
Dovan, I still don't see how the PC Cleric is able to control the ghost, certainly not for any length of time.
You say
"when they were in combat with Wat (the Ghost) the Cleric in the groop took controll of Wat."
Did he actually manage to control it with a Rebuke check?
By my reckoning he'd have to be at least 16th level to control Wat, who's 6th level and, as a ghost, has +2 Turn Resistance IIRC - you've gotta be a Cleric of twice that level before a 'rebuke' result becomes a 'control'.
Secondly, Wat can't leave the inn IIRC, so he can only kill the cohort if he sleeps in the inn (and if he does sleep in an inn haunted by a ghostly assassin, then he's fair game...and really stupid  ).
The mechanics of killing the cohort in his sleep are pretty straightforward - except for Uncanny Dodge.
Sleeping people are 'helpless' and don't get Dex or Dodge bonuses so I'd rule out Uncanny Dodge too - the ghostly assassin makes absolutely no noise after all. So it's a Death Attack and coup-de-grace all rolled into one, I'd say.
Which looks rather a lot like being a guaranteed kill.
Grumgarr - who's still not convinced that the ghost is 'controlled' at all
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msherman
Here for a while
(4/30/03 5:57 am)
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Re: How to get a ghost to do your dirty work...
Quote:
By my reckoning he'd have to be at least 16th level to control Wat, who's 6th level and, as a ghost, has +2 Turn Resistance IIRC - you've gotta be a Cleric of twice that level before a 'rebuke' result becomes a 'control'.
Do you actually have to be level 16? I've always interpreted that to mean that you have to roll 16 on your turn level check -- so if you're level 13, you end up with:
turn check < level-5: no result
turn check level-5:level+2: turn/rebuke
turn check >= level+3: destroy/control
Have I misinterpreted that?
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smetzger
Here for a while
(4/30/03 6:12 am)
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Re: How to get a ghost to do your dirty work...
Yes you have misinterpreted that. From the SRD:
Quote:
Destroying Undead
If a combatant has twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, the combatant destroy any that the combatant would normally turn.
Evil Clerics and Undead
Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.
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Andorax
Still here? Wow.
(4/30/03 6:21 am)
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Re: How to get a ghost to do your dirty work...
While smetzger is correct about having to have actual Cleric levels, one question does remain. Does the Undead creature get to count it's Turn Resistance on top of it's HD as well?
A literal reading suggests that while Turn Resistance adds to the HD of the creature with regards to being turned, only the true HD of the creature matters for Destroying/Controlling (which would allow a 12th level Cleric to control Wat).
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Trithereon
Here quite a while
(4/30/03 6:26 am)
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Re: Ghost
Well, according to the PHB: Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather then channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.
Destroying Undead: If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn ... which means to command you must have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice.
To complicate matters the PHB then says: Alternately, an evil cleric may command a single undead creature with more Hit Dice than he has levels, but he must concentrate continuously to do so (as in concentrating to maintain a spell), and he can command no other undead at the same time.
As Wat is a 6th level character with +4 turn resistance a 6th level cleric would need to roll at least a 22 on his turn check and at least 10 on Turning Damage to command Wat. The trick is that the ghost is now commanded only while the cleric concentrates ... which in this case it does not seem possible.
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Trithereon
Here quite a while
(4/30/03 8:20 am)
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Re: How to get a ghost to do your dirty work...
Quote:
A literal reading suggests that while Turn Resistance adds to the HD of the creature with regards to being turned, only the true HD of the creature matters for Destroying/Controlling (which would allow a 12th level Cleric to control Wat).
I didn't notice that, but your right. I had assumed that the Turn Resistance increased the undead's Hit Dice for resolving both the Turn Check and the Turn Damage.
Hmmm
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ZansForCans 
Here for a while
(4/30/03 9:54 am)
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Re: How to get a ghost to do your dirty work...
The MM is pretty clear that the Turn Resistance applies to everything: "Attempts to turn, rebuke, command, or bolster..." Destroy is not explicitly in there (but is a form of turning), but command (the equivalent) is. The language of non-destructive turning talks with Hit Dice and TR applies there for sure, so I think you continue to do the direct replacement HD+TR -> HD through the whole turning process.
BTW: Trithereon, that extra paragraph in the PHB (commanding one) was completely struck in the errata.
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Dovan Mageknight
Looking around
(5/1/03 1:16 am)
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Re: How to get a ghost to do your dirty work...
Hey guys thanks for the answers,it seams that the Ghost will be having some fun.
The Cleric in the group did roll real high in his first attemt to controll Wat,but he would not have been able to maintain controll.
I missed that part,about needing to keep the spell up.
Makes sence though..(now every one gets to die,cause he gave the ghost a ghost touch wepon,HAHAHAH)..
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 Siobharek 
Still here? Wow.
(5/1/03 11:22 am)
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Re: How to get a ghost to do your dirty work...
Quote:
Makes sence though..(now every one gets to die,cause he gave the ghost a ghost touch wepon,HAHAHAH)..
In which case I hope for you that you begin a non-evil campaign, as I really think it's more appropriate for this adventure.
Siobharek
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