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msherman
A song from the sixties
(5/14/03 2:56 am)
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Which gate's really easier?
I know that the south gate is listed as 2 CRs harder than the main gate, but I'm not really sure that's right. The main gate has roughly the same number of grunt troops as the south gate, but the main gate can commit all of them to defend the door, while the south gate has their forces split, with half of them guarding the door, and the other half guarding the west side of the Air Temple. Similarly, the south gate has more Clerics (and higher level, too, as well as the Elemental from the censer), but it doesn't look like they'd be too interested in helping defend the door, for fear of leaving the temple open to attack from the east or west.
So basically, we're looking at Kellial, 2 Ogres, and 15 grunts in the south gate, vs. Mereclar, the Howler, Wormspike, and 34 grunts at the main gate. And that's ignoring Terrenygit and his zombies, who seems more likely to help out Mereclar than Fachish and Choranth do for Kellial.
My players are currently resting up so the Cleric can cast Divination at the start of the next session, to decide which gate to assault. I'm honestly not certain how I should answer the question.
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madfox
A guitar
(5/14/03 3:06 am)
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Re: Which gate's really easier?
It all depends on how interested the Air Temple is defending the entrance. As far as I am concerned, your assesment that they are not interested is wrong. As a temple they are not very powerful compared to the other three. Their only way to influence the others is through their control over the entrance. Hence it is of vital importance to them to keep their control over the entrance. In fact, Kelial is described as being part of the Air Temple and the clerics are contemplating granting him the air sword as their champion. Also do not forget that the cloakers are also part of the Air Temple, so the gargoyles might show an interest as well. The Air temple is definitely a force to reckon, especially when the huge skeletons and large air elemental get involved. My players attacked the air temple when on average they were 2 levels higher then when they attack the main gate and they still had a VERY narrow victory.
Also remember that the main gate is a lose unit. There is hardly any communication between the forces of the main gate and the earth temple and the abondoned mines also form a convenient area for the PCs to flee into. Even if the Air Temple would not get directly involved, it is right next door and chances are the PCs will wander straight into the temple. The main gate by default is also less alert and easier to fool with a less able commander. Since it is not used as often, my PCs actually decided to use that entrance because it was the less used of the two. They used tracking to determine this.
That is not to say that the main gate is not powerful. It might actually be more dangerous if you use the proper advanced howler. Though the impact of the howler is highly dependent on the tactics of the PCs.
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msherman
A song from the sixties
(5/14/03 3:32 am)
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Re: Which gate's really easier?
Good point about the Skeletons and the Elemental; even if Fachish and Choranth wouldn't get involved themselves, they probably would send their beasts to help out Kellial, and that makes for a very different encounter. I just counted it out, and the limit of Choranth's Spirit Sphere goes to the south doors of the barbican, which is Rather Convenient(tm).
And I know that they're not disinterested; I just think they'd be too worried about committing their entire force to a fight at the door, for fear of attacks from the east or west; the east can probably be ignored, since any gate fight would probably be close enough to the barbican to act as a deterrant, but at the very least they'd leave Graud and his guards in place in 71/72 for fear of an attack from the orcs.
Hmmm... there's an interesting thought... if things get really bad for the air temple, eventually they'd probably send a runner to fetch Graud and the guards, at which point the Orcs might attack from the west, with their buddy the Hydra. That would be an interesting 3-way fight -- the Orcs would probably attack both temple guards and the party indiscriminately, since their main goal seems to be to secure the gate for their own use. Now _that_ would bump up the EL a bit!
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madfox
A guitar
(5/14/03 3:45 am)
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Re: Which gate's really easier?
How would the orcs know the air temple is under attack from the other side? It is not as if they have spies continually watching that area.
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 Infiniti2000
A guitar
(5/14/03 5:44 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Which gate's really easier?
One thing to note (I've said this before in a different thread on Plot Opportunities with the Gargoyles) is that the gargoyles are not allies of the Air Temple. In fact, they have the Earth Subtype and can be turned/destroyed by the clerics of the Air Temple.
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madfox
A guitar
(5/14/03 5:52 am)
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Re: Which gate's really easier?
The gargoyles are not allied with any temple, but at the very least they should be in friendly terms with the air temple. They are simply too close to the temple to remain undependent, especially if they want an audiance for their gladiator-games. That is not to say that will automatically help the air temple or the PCs, just that the PCs should either pose a real threat to the temples in general or make a real good offer before they directly help the air temple or the PCs.
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Infiniti2000
A guitar
(5/14/03 6:21 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Which gate's really easier?
The gargoyles have no reason at all to help the Air Temple or even be on friendly terms. They also have no reason to help anyone taking out the Air Temple. I'm sure things like that happen all the time. The gargoyles would likely just watch the combat in glee, if anything. Perhaps, as the victorious PCs come out of the barbican, down the hall, they see a Gargoyle clapping his hands (they must have caught a little bit of showmanship from past gladiators) and then duck into the arena.
They are IMO completely independent from the Air Temple. The Air Temple cannot afford the manpower to eradicate or subjucate Claaginred at this point. If the PC's pose a real threat to the Air Temple...why should Claagrinred care? He might offer to buy any prisoners from the PC's, and that is probably the extent of his thoughts for his former "allies".
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Entropius
A song from the sixties
(5/14/03 6:41 am)
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IMC...
In my campaign the party stormed the South Gate after a (bad) attempt at bluffing their way in. Most of the mooks got caught in a web that got set on fire. The guys in the barbican looked out and realized they couldn't get out because of the web, so Kellial ran up to the air temple, grabbing a few more guards on his way. (I meant for him to take the ogres too, but forgot about them -- good thing, too, because it could have been a disaster for the PC's otherwise)
After killing all the guards (except the two that got away), the PC's went up to the Air Temple, only to find Fachish, Kellial, Choranth and her skellies, and the guards there.
Fachish did the silenced-air-elemental bit, but a timely dispel from the cleric (who had stepped away) saved the mage. Still, he passed an extremely difficult concentration check to kill the elemental with a magic missile while it had him whirlwinded.
Much hacking later, and all the baddies were dead. Fachish himself fled, using air walk and then gaseous form (to avoid attacks and slip through doors without opening them) to the overlook, planning to float out over the Stalagos to the nearest bridge (he didn't have time to make it to the Air Bridge), rest there and pop his spells (at dusk), then fly over to the Air Bridge Complex.
This scheming was cut short by the only thing that could hit him: the cleric's Spiritual Weapon, which critted him over the Stalagos on its last round of existence, dropping him like a stone into the water.
The tower lookouts saw this whole mess (but didn't recognize Fachish), and the SER's flew out to investigate... seeing the PC's in the doorway watching Fachish.
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madfox
A guitar
(5/14/03 6:53 am)
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Re: IMC...
Actually, the gargoyles do have a reason to have at the very least a truce with the air temple. They are running an arena presumably for profit. If I remember correctly they have to leave through the south gate to get victims for the pits and any visitors will definitely need to get in passed air allied forces.
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