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Ordos1
A song from the sixties
(5/18/03 5:43 pm)
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Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign?
Hi,
Does anyone have any idea how I can prevent Detect Evil/Good spells from ruining a plot in this module (let alone any other module!) ? I know i can use things like "Undetectable alignment", but one can't give that to everyone.
I find a spell like Detect Evil simply too powerful for the information it yields. For example, I'm tryin got get Chatrilon to join the party, and i've been playing him a bit... well... as they describe in the module. So that being said, the party was suspect of him. So one guy in the party "goes to the bathroom", casts the spell, and then comes back to basically scans the entire bar (including our anti-hero Chartrilon).
I find that in some ways, this ruins the module -- the suspense of saying "do we, or don't we trust him"?
Does anyone have any ideas how to deal with this kind of situation?
Thanks
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mirrorsh
A trophy
(5/18/03 6:57 pm)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign?
I modified Chatrilon's inventory to give him infinity scrolls of undetectable alignment, otherwise the party cleric would've know what was up the instant they met the guy (and even if Chat used his scroll for one day, he'd light up every single day afterwards since the party cleric casts detect evil ALL THE TIME). Of course this means Chat costs 150 gp *PER*DAY* to operate in the open, making him a poor spy IMO.
Then a PC turned evil, and I whooped in with some monster deus ex machina: some guy came to town selling a "ring of mind shielding" and I let the PC pay it with a loan that he has to pay off in several months time. *JUST* to prevent him from lighting up every time the cleric casts a cantrip.
So no I have no good advice. You might equip most "undercover" evil people who are not 3rd+-lvl clerics with an "X of undetectable alignment 1/day" which would unfortunately cost 2400gp (you might DM fiat such items to cost much less money). Or you might decide that detect evil does not actually detect evil characters unless they are high-level evil priests or outsiders or something (2E detect evil worked more like this). Basically you'd have to tinker with the rules, I think.
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Caedrel
A song from the sixties
(5/18/03 8:17 pm)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign?
I think it very much depends on the plot; those that rely on secrecy should have measures in it to counter these sorts of tactics - check out "The Standing Stone" for some very good examples of this.
In the more straightforward dungeon crawling part of the module, Detect Evil isn't terribly helpful. It's good for re-inforcing just how evil the CRM / Outer Fane / Inner Fane are, although the caster runs the risk of being knocked out overwhelming evil at times.
In Hommlet, Detect Evil might tell them that Maridosen is evil, but it doesn't tell them that she's an agent of the cult - maybe she's just a nasty b*tch who'll piss in your drink when you're not watching. Nierethi is evil, but he's not allied to the cult in any way. The racist teamsters will come up as evil, but they're not much of a threat.
Chatrilon seems to be the main problem, because he's trying to engage the group and join them while acting as a double agent. Of course the group are suspicious - they should be. Chatrilon needs to give them a plausible reason why he wants to join and not be afraid of being pegged as "evil". So the party aren't afraid of checking out the worthless moathouse - well, he might as well go along and make sure they don't prove him wrong by getting all the good loot. Sure, he'll pull his weight - adventurers have to look after each other's backs, after all - but he wants his cut. He still thinks it's a waste of time, but the exercise won't kill him, and he can show them how good he is with a sword...
I guess I'm saying you don't need to make everyone's alignment undetectable - just the ones to whom it's important to stay hidden, and there are means of doing that.
Of course, you've got a different problem if the party's standard battle plan is "PC: Does it Detect as Evil? DM: Yes PC: CHAAAAARRGE!!!" I'd hope this would be unlikely in Hommlet, where the authorities would frown on such behaviour (especially since a corpse doesn't detect as good OR evil).
mirrorsh, I find your approach interesting - it's not as if a cleric is going to be any less suspicious ("Gee, this person has the motive AND the means to hide his alignment..."). I'd be watching them more closely than the guy who shows up as low grade evil... and how is Chatrilon going to use scrolls anyway? He's a fighter, not a wizard or rogue...
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Trithereon
A robot with powers
(5/18/03 9:09 pm)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign?
I agree with Caedrel.
Early on in my campaign my players gave up using Detect Evil as a method to solve mysteries. Several "false positives" led them to make conclusions that were inaccurate and sent them on "wild goose chases". Basically, they learned that average people, the NPCs that they meet on the streets and in the pubs, can be evil. These people have nothing to do with evil plots to rule/destroy the world. They aren't cultists or blood thirsty murderers. They are just selfish, nasty, bitter, resentful people who go about their lives cheating, stealing and lying to acheive what they might not normally be able to achieve. Druing one adventure they had themselves chasing after every evil NPCs they'd "pinged" on the old detect evil radar, only to find out that the real villian was neutral in alignment.
As soon as your players understand that Detect Evil is not the ultimate guide to hunting vlillians they'll stop using it so often. Now my players use Detect Evil to find phsically hidden evil that they suspect are nearby (like the Sea Hag in the CRM). Detect evil is still a pain sometimes (for us DMs) but what can you do? It has its purpose.
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Helderik
A song from the sixties
(5/18/03 11:27 pm)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign?
No, detect evil did not ruin my campaign... However, my group's paladin is using detect evil for almost anything... Does a paladin's detect evil ability require verbal or somatic components (as with casting the spell) and the divine focus? I can't seem to find this anywhere... This could be a small obstacle to use detect evil in public, because it could be interpreted as an insult and a lack of manners (and trust!). In my campaign, I ruled that using detect evil did requires a Divine focus and the verbal and somatic components (i.e. a small prayer). Is this correct?
Because of this reason Chat managed to infiltrate in the group. The paladin didn't want to cause trouble in the inn by using his detect evil in public (this happened before!!). By the time he figured out what chat's plan was, chat was trying to stab his dagger into the wizard's back (although luckily he missed ). Next time however... I don't think they will let this happen again. Any new groupmembers will most definitely be checked.
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madfox
A guitar
(5/19/03 1:07 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign?
The detect evil of a paladin is a spell like ability. In the Monster Manual it is described that this means there are no verbal, somatic or material components involved. On the other hand, using a spell like ability does trigger an attack of oppertunity and it can be disrupted just like when casting a spell. So I always envision it as a paladin who has to focus on the ability at the exclusion of his normal senses and people do notice that. Also remember that it takes 3 rounds before the PCs are even able to pin point all the aura's, which is a clear sign something is amiss unless the PC can hide it behind some innocent behaviour (bluff check).
Anyway, in my campaigns my players never trusted on detect evil and never will. As has been said before, not every villain is evil and not every evil creature is a villain. In fact, on more then one occassions the PCs faced misguided fools (or where the misguided fools themselves) or were dependent on the help of evil creatures to survive or reach their goals. In case of the Temple of Elemental Evil this can be true as well, since even evil creatures prefer to stay alive. Finally, the misdirection spell actually makes somebody else detect as evil. In short, it is a useful spell to alert the PCs, but it is certainly not a clear sign the opponent will betray them.
Side note - detect evil is a 1st level spell and not a cantrip as one poster seemed to think (or at least post).
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Zenon
A song from the sixties
(5/19/03 4:33 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign?
Quote:
Basically, they learned that average people, the NPCs that they meet on the streets and in the pubs, can be evil. These people have nothing to do with evil plots to rule/destroy the world. They aren't cultists or blood thirsty murderers. They are just selfish, nasty, bitter, resentful people who go about their lives cheating, stealing and lying to acheive what they might not normally be able to achieve.
This is how I do it. When my PC's first hit the Welcome Wench in Hommlet and got rooms, the cleric when upstairs, cast Detect Evil, and came back down. He then scanned the room, finding out about 1/3 of people present gave off an evil aura! I explained to him then everything in the quote above.
Quote:
and how is Chatrilon going to use scrolls anyway? He's a fighter, not a wizard or rogue...
Chat is an Assassin, thus has the potential to be able to cast spells. He can use an arcane scroll of Undetectable Alignment because it is on his class list of spells:
From the SRD:
Quote:
Assassins choose their spells from the following list:
1st level—change self, detect poison, ghost sound, obscuring mist, spider climb.
2nd level—alter self, darkness, pass without trace, undetectable alignment.
3rd level—deeper darkness, invisibility, misdirection, nondetection.
4th level—dimension door, freedom of movement, improved invisibility, poison.
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 Infiniti2000
A guitar
(5/19/03 6:17 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign?
I also agree with Caedral. While I don't have any paladins in my group, I would suggest you not go out of your way to artificially nerf the paladin's detect evil ability. This might make your player understandably upset if they find out, and they will if every single bad guy has protection from it. I think a few false positives will do wonders and will still make the player feel like he's being useful and to use the ability as a tool, not the ultimate judge.
On that note, doesn't Dunrat have a ring of mind shielding? It's quite possible he would let Chat "borrow" it, and this wouldn't change anything.
Being a spell-like ability, it is noticeable in public and anyone with spellcraft can notice what the paladin is doing, having up to 3 rounds to vacate the area.
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madfox
A guitar
(5/19/03 6:36 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign?
Quote:
Being a spell-like ability, it is noticeable in public and anyone with spellcraft can notice what the paladin is doing, having up to 3 rounds to vacate the area.
To identify a spell one has to see and hear it being cast. A spell like ability does not have any components. Perhaps it could count as identifying a spell after it has been cast (so it would have a DC of 21), but usually I only allow a spellcraft when there is an obvious effect. I mean, would somebody see the difference between a detect magic, detect thoughts, detect evil/good/chaos/law and similar spells?
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The guy from Belgium
A song from the sixties
(5/19/03 6:55 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign?
well, the way i see it:
imagine for a moment:
some guy in shining armor and displaying a holy symbol on most of his gear starts concentrating
instant reaction: "woah, that guy must be a paladin of some sort" (check to recognize holy symbol)
check succeeds... "oh nice, he's a "good" paladin... so he must now be doing what we know every paladin can do: detecting evil..."
"great, i'll register as being evil... time to make a clean exit"
cause that is how detect evil works, you get a subtle hint as the paladin is focusing his divine energies to determine the nature of those around him
if anyone notices this (they should get a bad feeling of hanging around a good paladin in any event) they get to react and have 3 rounds (18 seconds) to get out of his range
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Ordos1
A song from the sixties
(5/19/03 7:01 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
Doesn't this raise an interesting point however... which is: Can someone tell when you're using a spell? This is true for a great number of spells that have no outwardly visible effect.
Charm XXX
Detect XXX
Domination
(ie: just about any enchantment spell).
Would people KNOW they were subject to something? Does someone KNOW their aura is being read? Or that they were targets of a charm?
I find this is missing the d20 spell descriptions and it would be very useful to have.
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The guy from Belgium
A song from the sixties
(5/19/03 7:19 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
well, this is going a little outside the scope of rttToEE, but let me try to clarify how i run "charm"-like spells
i always get my palyers to roll 3 dice ahead of the beginning of the session (3d20's)
i take their average and write that down number on my DM-page
whenever i used a charm like affect or something similar on my pc's, i used their average roll
this had a nice result: if they were under my influence, they wouldn't know about it, and if they made the save, then they didn't suspect anything, except when they noticed someone casting the spell or had another way of determining what had happened just then
i could have a charmed pc sit down with an npc and spill some details about their quest (giving the baddies some useful insights into the party) or have them perform an errand for the bad guys
as for detect evil by a paladin, it shows (as stated above)
detect evil by a cleric is a spell that can be identified by a spellcraft check (if he does it visibly)
hope it helps somewhat
ps: the rolls they made also go towards passive spot or listen checks.. if they hear something i'll inform the ones who had a high enough average roll... if they don't see or hear anythig, i don't give away that there's something out there by asking for a roll... cause rolling a die always gives something away
ex: okay, roll a die... never mind...
see? the players now know that they missed something and will pay attention
but with the passive rolls (average of 3) you can keep things secret 
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Andorax
A guitar
(5/19/03 7:26 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
I agree with Infiniti2000 on this point. Seriously:
If you are planning on throwing skeletons at the party, do you look for ways to nerf Turn Undead?
If you're planning to hit them with rabid animals, do you look for ways to nerf Animal Empathy and Speak with Animals?
So why are you trying to nerf a Paladin ability? It's a good choice, it's a good call, and when Chat offers to 'help' the party, the Paladin clears his throat and says "no thank you". PCs go on about their business, Paladin's being RPed properly, and Chat follows them stealthilly to the Moathouse, waiting to strike from behind when he gets a good opportunity (well after they down the dragon, when he finds out about it).
Let me put it another way...would you be as upset about the Sorceror who took Detect Thoughts as a spell? Or the Rogue who happened to have a good Wisdom and put max ranks into Sense Motive? It's a different way to attain the same goal, but it's just as valid.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
The guy from Belgium
A song from the sixties
(5/19/03 7:32 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
knowing what the paladin is doing by his actions (concentrating to detect evil) isn't nerfing it, is it? (i'd give the bad guy a sense motive or spot to determine what the paladin is doing, after all, it takes three rounds to complete)
or weren't you refering to me?
i'd still rule it is a visible and well known action
if i were chat, i wouldn't even bother getting into the party with a paladin, knowing full well (an assassin knows this) that the paladin will screen him with the detect evil ability
in my party, chat didn't try to get in the party because they had a paladin with them, so he just stalked them and attempted to assassinate someone once they discovered the cellar in the mill...
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Trithereon
A robot with powers
(5/19/03 7:40 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
Quote:
Would people KNOW they were subject to something? Does someone KNOW their aura is being read? Or that they were targets of a charm?
The way I understand it is that if you get a saving throw against it and you succeed then you noticed the magic affecting you. If the spell does not allow for a saving throw, or you fail your saving throw then you don't notice.
Say a theif recognizes a paladin and plans to steal his coins. The attempt is botched and the theif runs for the safety of a dark ally. The paladin approaches the ally and casts his detect evil before entering. If the paladin walks down the dark alley concentrating on maintaining his spell then the motionless, hidden thief wouldn't feel the magic as the spell's area of effect enveloped him. However, because the maintainence of a spell is a standard action the paladin can only take one move action. This slow, cautious approach may tip off the thief that the paladin is using his divine powers to search out evil.
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The guy from Belgium
A song from the sixties
(5/19/03 7:45 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
Quote:
The way I understand it is that if you get a saving throw against it and you succeed then you noticed the magic affecting you. If the spell does not allow for a saving throw, or you fail your saving throw then you don't notice.
true, if they made the save, i'd give away a hint like
"it felt like someone was rummaging through your head... like a whispering voice inside your head... don't worry, i'm your friend..."
if they failed the save, they had no way of knowing they were now under someone else's compulsive spell 
an to quote your example... the thief would (might) indeed realise the paladin was homing in on him with detect evil due to his slow approach... so he's probably bolt from his hiding place, deeper into the alleyway or try to rush / tumble past the paladin
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madfox
A guitar
(5/19/03 7:56 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
There is a difference between nerfing an ability and placing it in perspective. In my campaigns detect evil works, it is just not a sure sign that whoever they are facing is a villain and is out to get the PCs. It is one clue among many that the PCs might have that something might not be entirely as it appears to be.
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Andorax
A guitar
(5/19/03 8:41 am)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
Ok...perhaps I'd better explain better, since I was really answering the original post, and not the discussion as a whole.
In no way am I suggesting that a Paladin has no visible sign of using his powers, or that the only evil people that show up under the detect be the villains of the plot. These are both valid points, and should definately be considered and worked in.
I was more answering to the suggestions of "lots of scrolls of undetectable alignment" and "borrow a Ring of Mind Shielding".
Will it tell you that Chat and Mari are the two "bad guys", so the party can then attack and kill them in the middle of town, sans-motive? NO. Total abuse and misapplication.
Will it tell you that Chat is evil, and therefore falls under the "will not knowingly associate" clause of the Paladin's code? Yes. The "join the party" ploy didn't work...move on. There's plenty more where that came from.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Infiniti2000
A guitar
(5/19/03 9:56 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
Andorax, thanks. That's what I meant, too. Do not introduce too many ways for the bad guys to remove a PC's primary benefit/ability lest that player feel slighted throughout this long campaign. I did not mean this as any personal attack to anyone's idea or campaign, so my apologies if you took it as such.
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mirrorsh
A trophy
(5/19/03 1:42 pm)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
Well here are some issues:
1) Yes I mislabeled Detect Evil as a cantrip when it is really a 1st-level spell. Whatever, in non-dungeon situations the cleric has plenty of them on-hand and of course paladins have the ability at their disposable at all times.
2) Detect Evil does NOT allow a save or spell resistance. So _unlike_ things like Detect Thoughts where there is a (pretty good) chance that your victim will make his save and notice you cast a spell on him there is never a fear that it will not work (absent protective magic), nor is anyone the wiser if you are using it on them, nor is anyone scared that you are casting an offensive spell on them.
3) Good and Evil in D&D are not subjective positions or whatever. They are objective, definable things. In this light, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that evil individuals would be tolerated at all in any civilized society. In the real world, where you may vehemently disagree with someone's beliefs and even suspect them of being an "evil" person, you quite simply DO NOT KNOW that for sure: maybe they're misunderstood, maybe they know something you don't, maybe your own personal moral views are wrong, maybe you got a bad first impression, who knows? In D&D however, they are unequivocally and objectively evil. Your god, an impartial and infallible observer, can flat out tell you who is and is not evil.
I'm not saying you cast detect evil and then start killing anyone who lights up, but I doubt most people would associate with someone that their local pastor said was untrustworthy and morally bankrupt, and objectively so.
4) It is not without precedent that priests/clerics require the casting of a detect evil spell to associate with them. Calmer in St. Cuthbert's Cathedral casts detect evil on anyone who wishes to see the Canoness. Most of society may accept priests using it on a regular basis.
5) Detect evil lasts 10 min / level. It is not difficult to go out of sight, cast the spell, and then spend the next hour or so associating with people and picking out the evil ones.
6) It may be in the rules, it may be D&D, but if you *WANT* the party to get misled by an evil individual that they place some modicum of trust in, you have very few options:
a) Change the rules to nerf detect evil
b) Give the individual some "protection from should-I-trust-him" spells, and enough protection to last the duration that he'll be with the party (which is a lot like option a except you are nerfing it "legally")
c) Trivialize the definition of evil and throw evil characters all over the place, so that when you cast the spell and detect evil it doesn't surprise you, or even really dissuade you from interacting with such individuals.
d) Just not have such plots.
So, in conclusion, if your party is rational and refuses to associate with people who have no morals and are certifiably terrible, but yet you want them maybe to occassionally associate with evil people, you will either have to nerf detect evil or throw lots of alignment-shielding magic around.
The other really good solution to this kind of problem would be if the results of detect evil were not infallible. Maybe a 50/50 chance. Maybe it sometimes gives false readings. Maybe if you happen to be thinking of something selfish at the time (and even good individuals do) it registers you as "evil" for that moment. In this case "detect evil" would at best be a minor indication that something might not be right, instead of being a signal of pure certainty that so-and-so is a terrible individual that cannot be trusted at all.
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Andorax
A guitar
(5/19/03 2:06 pm)
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Re: Did Detect Evil ruin your campaign
mirrorsh, I see what you're getting at, but I think you are being a bit overreactive about it. Yes, it makes it awfully difficult for an Evil being to get "chummy" with the party without serious protective magics. However,
1) What you mention as "trivializing" evil is an overreaction, at least IMHO. Remember that according to "Detect Evil".
Evil Creature = HD / 5
Evil Power 1 or less: Faint aura
Thus, any evil PC, save for a cleric, of up to 9th level is going to detect as "faint" (remember, always round down unless told otherwise).
Chatrillion and Maridosen are going to detect as Faint Evil. So, too, will Nierethi Proscurian. So too, at least in my opinion, will:
Moneir (7) and Ganna (12): Illicit Affair
Naresh (11): Bigotry
Telna (19): obviously
Naddy (21): Judgemental
As well, to borrow a quote from Xaod the Paladin's own description:
"He does not read the occasional evil aura as anything more than might be expected in a given town"
Yes, Faint Evil is everything from that 9th level LE Fighter to the 1st level commoner who's selfish and greedy. That's not trivializing, that's playing it straight by the books.
As for people refusing to associate with those "objectively determined" to be evil, that goes back to the same thing. These people might be distrusted by the clergy itself, but it's unlikely that the entire community can be turned out against such individuals wholesale.
Ever seen the movie Chocolat? The drunkard abusive husband's behavior was well known to everyone in town, but that didn't mean he was ostricised or even avoided. That they knew him, and that he had a place in the town, was more important than how he acted, and made him less "evil" than strangers in town, however friendly and kind they might seem.
Quite honestly, the party is going to draw a benefit from choosing to detect for, then refusing to associate with, known evil persons (such as Chatrillion).
They're also going to have drawbacks when their "won't associate with Evil" morals will prevent them from being able to better interrogate Lareth in Nulb, or perhaps (depening on some DM's take) lead them to kill Varachan where he stands.
Besides, you can always have Jaroo pick up the plot Chatrillion is forced to drop. Gotta love Doppleganger's auto-neutral stance.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
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