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Author
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Comment
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(5/30/03 1:43 pm)
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Any good variations on the Ruined Temple?
I am running teh Ruined Temple Monday. Does anyone have any creative suggestions? I have my battle plans ready. I just want to hear some variations in case I'm missing something.
Also, does anyone have cool ideas for the NPCs around the area? My ideas seem pretty basic. I could have the druid come tell the group about the hobgobs. If the spies are encountered, I will have them spotted in the distance observing the party. They would see the hulk of the bugbear. If they encounter the EEE cleric, the cleric would seen wondering at a distance.
I just don't feel that the evil trio or the lone cleric would dare approach a party with 7 members. That would be suicide.
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 Siobharek 
A guitar
(5/31/03 12:47 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Any good variations on the Ruined Temple?
That depends on your party, really. I know from another post that they're ECL 5. How many are there? Some posters here have added 20' walkways with goblins with alchemist's fire, which proves very interesting.
I'd emphasize one thing. The temple is huge. And it's dark. In some ways, you migt want to re-view your FotR scenes from the mines of Moria - the temple hall is (almost) that big. That means that your group won't necessairly see the hobs until they're almost on top of them. Also these hobgoblins are tactically shrewd. They will proceed under cover of thrown javelins. They'll hide behind pillars. They'll move forward in bursts and they'll spread out. And they'll send in the regular troops (the 10 hobs from area  before committing the elites and Rarkus. And don't forget the ape. It's a killer.
In short, if you have any idea (even from fiction) about how the US Marines go about their business, this is where to use those ideas. I don't have any military training at all, but I used all the movie bits I could remember.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Xanthos Prince of Darkness
A song from the sixties
(6/1/03 10:03 pm)
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Re: Any good variations on the Ruined Temple?
Don't forget that once it degenerates into a swarming battle (it will don't worry) that PC's only get 1 AoO per round (Combat Reflexes aside). That means after that 1 AoO potion drinking, bull-rushing and grappeling are all 'free' (in terms of Aoo's not actions). You could just have them run straight past the frontline and surround the casters. Do you want to risk the Cast on the Defensive check if failure means 8 AoO's?
How you choose the opening tactics is up to you. The walkways with grenade-like missiles could work. So could strike groups. Don't forget that despite the low Attack Bonus once they hit they do decent damage. My group just rushed in, got swarmed and then dropped a fireball on them (plus half the party). This put both the fighters in single digits and the few remaining elites could kill them in 1 hit. That made them think twice about just continuing hacking. If you feel your party needs a tougher challenge play away from their strengths. Many up front fighters, go long range. Archers, then swarm them. It really depends on the party make-up.
Xanthos
I've rolled low again.
This is a game of random numbers,
Yet the dice taunt me with low rolls.
Do you think fate will love you more?
Do you think you will succeed where I have failed?
Then take them,
Take them in your hand and roll,
Monkey-boy |
JRedGiant
A cup of coffee
(6/1/03 10:48 pm)
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Re: Any good variations on the Ruined Temple?
Yikes...I'm glad I read this. I'll have to alter how I prep my notes for the Ruined Temple, which my party may hit Sunday as well.
As for Nulb, IMHO the party killing Lareth will only shock them later on (but we killed him...) and Wat could be a really tough encounter for a large group. After all, that means there will probably be at least one good target for a backstab/death attack and run away. Plus his malevolence is a good way to get a death attack. It'll be challenging.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/2/03 4:51 am)
Reply
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Re: Any good variations on the Ruined Temple?
Thanks for the help. I'll use those tactics. It's kind of what I was planning - hobs throwing javelins from behind cover, then bringing a swarm. It will be difficult for the PCs to take them by surprise, unless they scale on of the walls. Even then, the dogs will probably start barking. I think I'm going to make the goblin slaves rush in past the beefy fighters and attack the mages. Then they can waste thair AOOs on the little punks. Then my hobs will come in charging. If my slaves get through, they could stop spells with their AOOs.
Good ideas guys! Thanks!
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madfox
A guitar
(6/2/03 5:08 am)
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Re: Any good variations on the Ruined Temple?
One tactic that did wonders against my group of PCs was to attack them from different directions with small groups of apparently easy to defeat hobgoblins. This had the result that the PCs split up to each deal with one threat, while not overly exposing the hobgoblins. Then the primary NPCs just decided to attack one PC at a time. If the PCs had not surrendered there would have been two deaths at the very least. Then again, Utreshimon was there and he dealt handily with the barbarian. If there is one thing that that battle tought my players, then it was to focus on one opponent at a time.
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Roland the red
A cup of coffee
(6/2/03 6:34 am)
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Tactics of Hobgoblins
In a previous game, I used the following tactics...
Each group of Hobgoblins is effectively a "strike" team.
Each strike team operates independantly, but follows a similar strategy.
First, once alerted (the guys at the gates should have no problem gettin' in before the PCs) the two side area teams set up behind makeshift shield walls, effectively channeling the PCs down the center. The walls provide half cover to the Hobgoblins who are just behind hurling javelins. The Goblins are probably with them, but note that the errata has goblins using DARTS not JAVELINS!
If the PCs attempt to stay and fight one or both flanks, have the center goblins (main temple area) move in to close for melee with the ape in tow...
This is good for basic tactics
For more advanced (and more deadly) tactics, use firing platforms on each of the pillars with the alchemist fire etc. Remember that They get a height advantage (+1) using their Javelins or attacking someone climbing up (The Hobgoblins use rope ladders they can pull up). About half the Hobgoblins use these firing platforms (think of hunting deer from a tree blind). Initially they are far enough up to not be noticed except those with low-light vision or darkvision, and even then, a spot check should be made. The platforms are loaded with about 10 javelins apeice...The grounded Hobgoblins and goblins try to draw the PCs back, so that they are in the center of teh firing platforms. Then they charge while the others rain death upon them...very wicked.
You know the skill of your group, so keep balance in mind. I've TPK'd one group with this tactic, but the other group managed to defeat this easily with fireball against the ground forces and what was once thought to be a stupid purchase: a wand of entropic shield...
Roland the Red, who remembers well the motif of all four temples in the ruins...
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/3/03 5:22 am)
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
Thanks for the advice guys! I thought they would get further last night, but they finished the main part of the Ruined Temple. They didn't go to the tower or the shack. It was a great battle. They scouted and decided the main entrance was the best route into the courtyard. They had alerted the dogs in their scouting operation. The entrance was guarded by 7 hobgobs and the 6 dogs. The party saw 2 of the hobgobs hiding behind the wall with javelins ready. The paladin charged on of the hobgobs and saw the rest of the force hanging back. A fierce battle ensued. After dropping all but three of the hobgobs and all the dogs, the remaining hobgobs bolted for the door and reached it at a full run. The monk raced behind them and the Air Genasi thief flew in and stabbed one at the door slaying him. The paladin fired his longbow and slew another at the door. In desparation the last hobgob turned and lunged at the monk, missing. Then the Monk bashed him with his club.
The group opened the door. It was very dark. A storm was ragin outside, so no no light was coming in through the stain glass. The hobgobs made a wall on either side of the side hallways. No one could see them except the drow. They moved further into the room, and they spotted each other. The drow (sor) tossed a coin with darkness cast on it in the middle of the hobgobs. The group on the left was forced to break formation and move forward. The paladin charged on his right to the other group. They tossed javelins and missed. A melee broke out. Goblin slaves charged the middle. The mage casted lightning bolt and took out most of them. The other two surviving goblins fled back down the hall. The hobgob ranks dwindled, when the final group marched in. The elites, the ape, Krebbich and Rarkus. Krebbich was invis, and Rarkus was bull strengthed. This group moved right toward the fighter and the paladin, so they could take them out and get a better defensive position. The dire ape ripped the paladin with a claw for 13 or so. He struck back with a critical hit, but the ape was up. The fighter speared it and it fell. Then the ape got back to his feet. The fighter said, "What kind of ape is this?" I thought, "The kind that's getting a cure moderate shoved down its throat." It hit the fighter with both claws, rending for a total of 36 damage, nearly killing the fighter. The paladin moves through threatened areas to get to Rarkus, but the ape takes its AOO with both claws. Both hit, and it rended for 43 damage, felling the paladin. He is near death now and bleeding. The Air Genasi moves to aid the paladin. She hits him with the cure light wand, which stabilized the paladin. The fighter finished off the ape. Then Krebbich commanded the Air Genasi. She fell, and Rarkus took his two attacks on her when she fell. One hit, one threat...confirmed with a 20...variation death confirmation 20. I instantly killed with a critical. Ouch! Krebbich showed himself. And the party finished off the rest of the enemies. I almost had a few kills. The group left the temple after looting the bodies. They went to get a true resurrect on the Genasi. They didn't search the place.
Next game the other goblins and hobgobs will occupy the temple, but they will be much easier to beat. I will use some different tactics there though. All in all it was a great time. The players had fun, but the instant kill was a downer. We are going to change the variant to taking you to -1 instead of instant death.
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Siobharek
A guitar
(6/3/03 5:27 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
Sounds like a great battle indeed. Congrats. One thing, though
Quote:
The players had fun, but the instant kill was a downer. We are going to change the variant to taking you to -1 instead of instant death.
Why not just get rid of the Insta-Death rule altogether?
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
madfox
A guitar
(6/3/03 5:28 am)
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
It seems you had a fun battle. One thing, an attack of oppertunity consists of ONE attack, so it is never possible to rend with an AoO (or at least not with a dire ape were both claws need to hit before the rend).
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/3/03 5:45 am)
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
The dire ape gets both claws with an AoO because they are not separated by a comma. It is not considered a separate attack. He cannot bite and claw, but he gets both claws.
I kind of like the variant, because I think there should be some benefit to rolling something so rare as three 20s. It's just such a rare event that I think it deserves some kind of benefit, but the instant death is a little rough for just random luck.
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JRedGiant
A cup of coffee
(6/3/03 5:55 am)
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Tactics of Hobgoblins
First off...thanks for the writeup of your session. I'm getting an excellent picture for how the hobgoblins will act IMC from reading this thread...and I'll probably be running it this Sunday. Muchos appreciados!
I don't like the InstaDeath rule either...and I think I've picked up the rep of a harsh DM here. But the players are seriously hosed by this rule. Over the course of the campaign, you'll pop a double 20 once out of every 400 times I think. That seems rare...but I think you'll hit every few sessions or so. Granted, they'll get an instant kill every few sessions or so as well, but there's an excellent chance they'll waste it on some kind of faceless minion as anything else.
I suggest you ditch it. A confirmed crit can do a whole heap of damage as is...two of my players died from crits without special rules. The only reason to keep it IMHO is that the player who died from it might consider it unfair if you drop the rule AFTER she died. The -1 rule would help lower level charecters quite a bit, as a confirmed crit might drop them lower than that. But you still run into the possibility of a lucky rat biting a 9th level fighter for about 80 points of damage.
Just my $0.02.
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madfox
A guitar
(6/3/03 6:16 am)
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
Quote:
The dire ape gets both claws with an AoO because they are not separated by a comma. It is not considered a separate attack. He cannot bite and claw, but he gets both claws.
That is the first time ever, I read somebody use that interpretation. Anyway, to give you another point of view, the SRD states: 2 clawS, while when discussing damage is talks about 1 claw. To me this certainly suggest it are two seperate attacks with two seperate damage amounts. Your interpretation also make statements like "if both claws hit" redundant since by definition both claws will hit.
To be honest though, the SRD does not directly contradict mine or your interpretation. I will take a look at the Fiend Folio (newest MM and hence most up to date overview chapter) for a good quote, unless somebody beats me to it...
[Edit - a way to bump the post as not read in an attempt to make sure that F. read this post. He posted a reply at same time as I did, so he might miss that fact  ]
Edited by: madfox at: 6/3/03 6:18:48 am
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/3/03 6:16 am)
Reply
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
You're right. I guess it could be a disadvantage to take someone to -1 if he was about to die alread and the normal crit damage was enough to outright kill him. My group runs two games, alternating weekly. I'll have to talk with the other DM about this. We like to keep house-rules consistant to avoid confusion.
I think the coolest thing about the encounter is that they split to resurrect the fallen friend. When they come back, it will be a totally different fight. There will be fire attacks and javelins from above. It will be a totally different battle.
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Infiniti2000
A guitar
(6/3/03 6:19 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
"The dire ape gets both claws with an AoO because they are not separated by a comma. It is not considered a separate attack. He cannot bite and claw, but he gets both claws."
Not true. An AoO is one attack. The reason it says "2 claws" instead of "claw and claw" is because the attack bonus is not reduced for the second claw. It is, however, another attack. In any case, if you don't believe us, I suggest you post this question in the rules forum to involve others and get a satisfactory answer.
"I kind of like the variant, because I think there should be some benefit to rolling something so rare as three 20s. It's just such a rare event that I think it deserves some kind of benefit, but the instant death is a little rough for just random luck."
I don't mean to also harp on you about this, but I have to agree that you should eliminate the insta-death rule. If anything, I suggest two alternatives: allow a fort save DC 15 to avoid death (like massive damage), or increase the critical by 1 (i.e. x2 becomes x3, etc.).
"Over the course of the campaign, you'll pop a double 20 once out of every 400 times I think."
Isn't it 1/8000? It's 3 natural 20's, not 2. Does it have to be 3 20's or is it just three crit threats (i.e. 19+,19+,19+ with a longsword or 15+,15+,15+ with a keen falchion and improved crit)?
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madfox
A guitar
(6/3/03 6:25 am)
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
The biggest downside of those instant death rules is not nessecarily that they can kill BBEGs in one hit. I have seen criticals or spells do exactly the same. The downside is that by the laws of averages, it happens a LOT more times against the PCs then against the opponents. After all, you roll a lot more dice then the players will. In many cases, it is also not nearly as effective against NPCs, becuase the NPC would have died one or two rounds later anyway. While in general the DM assumes the PCs will survive the combat.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/3/03 6:30 am)
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
I talked to the other DM in my group last night. He said I was right about the AoO. When an NPC has a write up with a double sword, his attacks are written separately - separated by an "and" or a comma with separate bonuses - even though it is the same weapon on both ends. I guess it is open to interpretation.
The instant kill is too much, I agree, but I'm not going to retroactively change what happened in the game. That was the rule going into the game. Now that the game has ended, my group will discuss how we need to change the rule. We are a very democratic group.
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madfox
A guitar
(6/3/03 6:42 am)
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
All right, I took a look at one of the new monster manuals. In these they make a differentiation between full attacks and single attacks, useful for example with the AOO.
Quote from The Unapproachable East, Blightspawned Treant:
"Attack: slam +14 melee
FULL Attack: 2 slamS +14 melee
Damage: Slam 2d6+11"
or the Fell Troll:
"Attack: Claw +21 melee
FULL Attack: 2 claws +21 melee and 2 bites +19 mlee.
Damage: Claw 2d4+11; bite 2d6+5"
In any event, the argument "my friend agrees with me", is not really an argument about whether your interpretation is correct or not, is it?
In any event, this discussion belongs in the Rules Forum and not here. There are people over their with a lot better grasp of the rules then I have and who also have the proper quotes at hand in no time.
Edited by: madfox at: 6/3/03 6:44:09 am
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/3/03 6:55 am)
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
You're right, this is not the right forum. The rules forum might be better, but who are the people on these boards anyway? Are they any more knowledgeable than my friend, who is a DM as am I? Who knows? I would trust someone who wrote the rules to give a difinitive answer. Until then it would be up to interpretation, unless there is something specific. I'm not going to argue it, anymore. I'll take a closer look at the core rules when I get home from work, to see if I can find anything more specific. Thanks for alerting me to a possible problem! Advice taken and will be further considered. 
Edited by: Offgall Fizziwigg at: 6/3/03 6:55:54 am
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madfox
A guitar
(6/3/03 7:09 am)
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Re: Tactics of Hobgoblins
O, I was not stating that me or my fellow posters around here know things better then your friend. That would be really presumptious and probably false as well What I was saying, was that merely agreeing with somebody, does not make it the truth automatically.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/3/03 8:39 am)
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To add to the confusion...
I read (on my lunch break) the FAQ on wizards.com. There I found some conflicting information. It reiterates that AoOs allow for one attack (obviously). Then it says that "creatures with multiple natural weapons are generally hardwired to use all of them simultaneously." I e-mailed the official rule-lawyers. I'll post what they said on this thread when I hear a response. That way we will all know what the rule is.
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