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Comment
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JRedGiant
A cup of coffee
(6/4/03 7:59 am)
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Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
Okay, I just read the "Horrific Appearance" ability of Wat. I'm suddenly very, very worried about my players. The way I see this encounter unfolding as is...the party enters Wat's building, pokes around a bit and someone gets death attacked. Then...as the party turns to confront the threat, they all make DC 16 Fort saves or lose about 7 stat points each...permanently...in enough different abilities to make the purchase of Restoration back in Hommlett difficult due to the sudden demand and time limit. The party licks their wounds, runs back to Hommlett and the players pool their cash to buy me a different module to run.
Am I overreacting, or is this encounter too dangerous.
I'm thinking of at least adding some warnings to be fair...talk in Hommlett about how Nulb is VERY haunted and to be avoided...a warning from Lareth about the tavern if they get to talking...perhaps even a fresh dead body on the floor, visible from the outside.
By the way, does Wat know he has the Horrific Appearance? It seems passive to me.
Oh, and for the record, I am VERY glad I didn't make Chat a ghost.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/4/03 8:41 am)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
I threw my players some bad rumors about Nulb. They avoided it on the way to the ruined temple, but they have been thinking about paying Nulb a visit. Nulb is very dangerous. I wouldn't change anything. Make sure you spread some rumors about Nulb in general about it being haunted. On Once they get there, make sure you give them the random encounters. They are pretty tough as well. After that, the players just have to decide where they want to go. I personally hope my players decide to skip Nulb. They probably won't though.
The question I ask is...How did everyone else handle Nulb?
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Killiak 
A trophy
(6/4/03 8:43 am)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
It is an ability he has to use and yes, he knows he has it.
By the way, Wat can't death attack. Why do you ask? Well, he can't study people while he is on the ethereal plane and he is not invisible when he does manifest, so he can't study.
It is a very nasty ability, but trust on their dice a bit. when they do roll, ask them all what they rolled and adjust the DC a bit (13, 14?) if they roll just below the 16.
Ur the DM, make it work  . As for this encounter; yes it is too strong for them. But if you got experienced players, they will put their backs to eachother and use the "Ready" option.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/4/03 9:05 am)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
I understood that Wat studied his opponents while on the ethereal plane and then appeared to cut down his foes. I don't have the RtToEEE book in front of be, but I remember that being spelled out. Then he would reappear to set up the assassination again if he missed. If he hit, then he stick around and fight like a man.
Edited by: Offgall Fizziwigg at: 6/4/03 9:06 am
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Killiak
A trophy
(6/4/03 9:38 am)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
Well, just look up Ethereal in the DMG. It's a nice lil error in the module. It is on Page 76, the second point they make about being Ethereal.
"Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct and ghostly"
So much for studying something.
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JRedGiant
A cup of coffee
(6/4/03 9:40 am)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
I just checked MM and Wat's description again. I saw no reason why he can't study from the ethereal plane. He can't affect things on the material plane, but he should be able to observe them just fine. Then he just manifests behind his victem and goes stabby stabby.
In any event, I'm not as worried about the death attack as the mass ability score drain.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/4/03 9:54 am)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
The assassin section doesn't say anything about not being able to study a victim from the ethereal plane. For that matter, neither does the quote from the DMG on etherealness. I figure as long as you can see that a person is there, you could study him and assassinate him.
Don't worry about the ability drain. That's why he's got a high CR. It will be worth the XP probably. He does have a nice ghost touched sword. That would have a nice selling price, that could pay for some restoration.
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JRedGiant
A cup of coffee
(6/4/03 10:12 am)
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Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
I suppose your right. I don't have my map handy, but Nulb shouldn't be more than a day back to Hommlett by horse. Figure an extra day for Y'day to memorize Restoration as many times as possible...that gives her 7 or 8 days (can't remember her level exactly...9 or 10) which should be enough.
The Temple of Helm (I run in FR) is going to be well funded at 500 gp a pop though.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/4/03 10:20 am)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
Where did you put them in the Realms? I put them in The Dales next to the mountains. I changed Verbobonc to Highmoon.
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JRedGiant
A cup of coffee
(6/4/03 10:50 am)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
Southeast of Neverwinter (which is my Verbonoc).
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ZansForCans 
A trophy
(6/4/03 1:17 pm)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
Nulb is very dangerous. I prepped the players as best I could with many warnings from Elmo and Spugnoir, who they began to trust fairly well. They knew they would be dealing with undead and incorporeal ones ('spirits') at that.
My players were only 4th level when they entered. I was a bit worried, but they are very good tacticians. Remember that they do have Y'dey back in Hommlet who can heal even their permanent ability damage (for a price). The horrific appearance only happens once per day, so your talking a maximum drain of 4 in each of the physical stats with a failed save. Your good Fort savers will probably have a 50/50 chance to make it. That's not that bad. It's a big encounter early on and should put things in context for the future for them.
Only one PC was hit with the horrific and none had a failed death attack roll. Lots of sneak damage was done, but then one character disarmed Wat. Very cool. Make them work for this one, since it's only going to get more nasty later!
I didn't have any trouble with him studying while ethereal. I didn't find any convincing RAW to the contrary.
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Killiak
A trophy
(6/5/03 12:45 am)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
Well, do what you like, but here is my reasoning;
Stuff on the materiasl plance looks ghostly, indistinct and gray. How in the bloody hell are you going to figure out what the best place is to put your pointy poker into? You are not, simple as that.
Assasin is nice for a rogue with a wand of invis, but for an ethereal ghost it isn't much of a hot choice.
Jredgiant; u checked the MM when I said U should check the DMG page 76.
Edited by: Killiak at: 6/5/03 12:46 am
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madfox
A guitar
(6/5/03 6:22 am)
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Re: Wat's aptly named HORRIFIC appearance
Even if you do not allow Wat to do the studying from the ethereal plane, he still could do it by manifesting in the wall and remaining hidden for three rounds. I used Wat as written and nobody died or lost anything permanently. The moment they saw him, they fled the tavern and never returned. My players know that they can meet things they cannot defeat and they are more then willing to flee. Before that they avoided Nulb and afterwards they fled as quickly as possible.
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Roland the red
A song from the sixties
(6/5/03 6:51 am)
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Ethereal and Material
The simplest explanation is that to an ethereal character, the material looks like a "ghostly" realm...like its 'permanently' manifested...
With that in mind, how does a manifested ghost appear to those in the material? You can determine race, equipment carried, facial expressions, etc...a material assassin could certainly study a ghost for 3 rounds to a death attack (well, he could, it just doesn't work against undead). In a similar vein, the ghost should be able to death attack a material creature...
If you insist on making the material too fuzzy for ethereal creatures to make out details, then material creatures should view ghosts and such as too fuzzy to make out details...
Roland the Red
Who just had Wat Sneak Attack (failed Death attack) the partys rogue and brought him to 1hp! The session ended on that cliff-hanger...
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Killiak
A trophy
(6/5/03 8:21 am)
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Re: Ethereal and Material
Guys, read the rules and descriptions before you post
A Ghost is an Ethereal creature but he can MANIFEST itself as an MATERIAL form. Sjeehs.........
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/5/03 9:16 am)
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Re: Ethereal and Material
He has a material form, but how is that relevant to the subject? The point is, he can study a victim in the Ethereal Plan, materialize, and attack. It's not the same as an arterial strike or improved critical, where you look for that perfect spot to place you blade. He can see a throat, he knows what part of the torso the heart and lunsg are. It's all about getting the blade far enough in to kill something. Also, for rules usually say whether certain things cannot do things. If the rule in the DMG for assassinations said, "Ghosts cannot study something on the material plane from the ethereal plane," then I would say you are right. Since it is not said, I wouldn't go interpreting a refernce on things looking ghostly on the material plane as meaning anything other than that.
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ZansForCans
A trophy
(6/5/03 10:48 am)
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Re: Ethereal and Material
As Offgall alludes to, the phrasing "gray, indistinct, and ghostly" is merely flavor. It certainly doesn't mention any granting of concealment, for example (although that may be irrelevant due to the lack of any ability to affect anything). You are welcome to rule that it has consequences. Many of us just don't. No biggie.
I interpret studying as meaning they watch the target for their motions, nuances, patterns, etc. so that they can strike a killing blow with surety. I hadn't been seeing it as a need to pinpoint vitals--an assassin should already be skilled with that ability (this is my flavor for the basic sneak attack). As such, I don't rule that it requires perfect vision. The death attack entry also doesn't specifically negate study for any sort of concealment or cover that the target has.
Quote:
A Ghost is an Ethereal creature but he can MANIFEST itself as an MATERIAL form.
I'm not sure what your point is here, but technically they are still on the Etherial plane (DMG 76). They appear as incorporeal when manifested, but as any such creature does, they still lack physical bodies and are insubstantial.
I think Roland's point was that a manifested, incorporeal ghost (or any incorporeal creature) still has definable features and is visible enough that no penalty is assessed on chances to hit them (affect them, certainly, but not just hit). Since the description of the view of the Material plane from the Ethereal one (again all flavor here) is not unlike that of what an incorporeal creature looks like, it seems like there should be some parity there and that studying shouldn't be affected as a result.
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 Infiniti2000
A guitar
(6/5/03 10:48 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Ethereal and Material
"Guys, read the rules and descriptions before you post
A Ghost is an Ethereal creature but he can MANIFEST itself as an MATERIAL form. Sjeehs [sic]........."
This is poor form to make such a post, berating people on not reading the rules. This is especially true when you fail to understand the rules yourself and that a ghost is only material on the ethereal plane (and even that can be argued). A ghost that manifests, however, is clearly incorporeal and therefore NOT material.
SRD: "When they manifest, ghosts become visible but remain incorporeal."
There's nothing in the rules about having to be on the prime material plane in order to study someone for a death attack. If you don't want to allow it (against the module's suggestion), then don't make him a ghost because all of his powers become useless. Make Wat an assassin wight or something.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/5/03 11:14 am)
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Re: Ethereal and Material
I agree with Infinity. That post was particularly harsh, and bad form. That's why my following post sounded harsh. I had an argument the other day, and I was wrong, but I didn't get angry or defensive. You have to understand that we are all DMs here with extensive, yet not perfect, knowledge of the rules.
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JRedGiant
A song from the sixties
(6/5/03 12:24 pm)
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> Re: Ethereal and Material
I agree with Zans' arguement 100%...it's pretty much verbatum what I was going to post... but writ bhetter. 
I'm also ruling IMC that the longsword, when used to attack corporeal creatures like the PC's, does not bypass armor in the manner of his touch attack. Any nits there?
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Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/5/03 12:45 pm)
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Re: > Re: Ethereal and Material
I think his sword would not bypass armor. It's just a ghost touched sword, which gets rid of the miss chance on undead (I think). I don't have the DMG here, but I'm sure it would still be subject to the armor bonus. If it does actual damage, it has to cut, pierce and get by material stuff. I hope this is making sense.
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