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Taelohn
A song from the sixties
(6/7/03 6:39 pm)
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Theft?
A character in my group has decided to start stealing magic items from Verbobonc. With the city's 40,000 gp limit on items, that could result in him acquiring a lot of items he shouldn't have. He's a wizard with a few rogue levels, so he makes use of spider climb, change self, invisibility, etc. What kind of precautions could the store owners have against such things?
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Trithereon
A robot with powers
(6/7/03 8:26 pm)
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Re: Theft?
Other than paying the local theives guild protection money; hiring a local policing service; relying on the local law enforcement; paying for strong, magically protected vaults; using magic to track down stolen goods; offering a large gold reward for the return of a stolen item?
However, only the most prosperous merchants can afford all this protection.
Basically, in a city as large as Verbobonc the presence of organized crime guilds is quite likely. A neighborhood of rich merchants may rely on all of the mundane measures: they pay taxes and expect law enforcement (which can be bribed by organized crime), or they may band together to pay for their streets to be lit and patrolled by mercenaries (which may also be on the take), and may be the victims of extortion by the town's theives guild.
That gives the merchant as much as three layers of protection from larceny. If a theft then occurs there are three levels of investigation. The guild will not sit quiet and let some free-lance thief ruin their protection racket. A private police force has their reputation to protect, else no one would pay for the service. The local law enforcement also has a reputation to protect, else there might be popular revolt.
Then there is magical protection: expensive but effective.
If all else fails and the merchant has enough information about the thief (through magic) and the item stolen is important enough then hiring bounty hunters (rival adventurers) is always an option - a simple wanted poster with sufficient reward may get results.
A poor merchant would likely have fewer protection options ... but what does he have to steal?
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CrossNightwalker
A trophy
(6/8/03 9:05 am)
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Re: Theft?
Also, consider simple defenses, like dogs or other guard animals, kept inside the shop, and let loose at night. You might further consider that some of these merchants live inside their shops...possibly on an upper floor. I find this is useful when I design wizard shops...the customer area is simply another room closed off from the rest of the wizard's abode (and usually protected by some imple magic traps. Tying Alarm to a simple glyph from your local church is always fun).
The other thing to do is to make sure you roleplay the thefts. It's just like any other adventure...if the player doesn't plan things out right, he's likely going to get himself in a buch of trouoble. Design the shop. Set up a guard patrol from the local police force. Put a trap or two, maybe a guard dog, inside the shop. Put the merchant onan upper floor....along with the strongbox that holds the day's take under a loose floorboard.
On the flip side, now that you've set up reasonable defenses, let the player use some skills to weasel his way in. A few Gather Information checks might learn that the merchant sleeps there at night (but probably not where the strongbox is). Going to the shop in the daytime, he miight notice animal hair here and there (Spot Check DC 20), suggesting a guard animal. Even if he finds your simple traps, he still has to disarm them...and that's not easy with magical trraps with only a couple of levels in rogue. Don't just roll a die and say "You got X, Y, or Z"...the player want's to be a thief? Let them play it to the hilt!
-Cross
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 Siobharek 
A guitar
(6/9/03 3:09 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Theft?
The suggestions above - which are all very good - also necessitate that all the thefts take place in game time. How long will the rest of the group put up with that?
Also, after one or two heists, the thieves' guild will indeed be very, very angry and will probablv shell out considerable sums of money to catch the thief, in which case I would certainly have the PC killed, publicly and permanently.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Offgall Fizziwigg
A song from the sixties
(6/9/03 5:05 am)
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Re: Theft?
Oh no! I would not put up with that for one minute. First of all, if someone is selling high powered magic items, you better believe there is a system in place to prevent stealing that stuff. There is probably magical wards, thieves guilds paid off for protection, etc. If a PC is stealing stuff like that, the thieves guild, like Siobharek said, would deal with them in short order. No PC short of epic level could survive an angry thieves guild that has been publically humiliated by PCs theiving in their territory. They would be made into examples for sure.
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CrossNightwalker
A trophy
(6/9/03 9:12 pm)
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Re: Theft?
Well, you could always run a very small side thing. I remember when I had a PC interested in doing jobs like this, I basically decided that we weren't going to take game time with it. So I put together a mini-thing for him, where he broke into a shop, and lifted a couple of items (non-magic...just cash). We agreed that he wouldn't do this often, simply because it was unfair to the other players for him to have a source of income like this. No XP for the side thing either...think of it like an elaborate lottery ticket.
As to the guild issue, ask yourself this: what if the PC thinks of that, and attempts to make contact with the guild? Offers a percentage of the take if he can do small freelance jobs, or simply attempts to join outright? Only hits merchants NOT under the guilds protection? I hit my PC up for an entrance "fee", and explained the guild rules were restrictive for newcomers, and he didn't blink an eye before accepting, figuring the potential benefits outweighed the costs. This is something I would almost expect a sneaky rogue player to want to try, and I don't think I'd punish them for it.
Think of it this way...if a wizard asked to join a guild, would you stop them? How about a fighter? It's an RP opportunity; perhaps the guild was recently hit by an outside group of thieves, and a high end magic item was stolen in transit to a buyer outside of Verbobonc. One of the thieves was killed, and though no one could identify him, it was noted that he had a tattoo on his collarbone above the sternum of a triange, with an odd marking on the inside.If the player takes the bait, lead him to a source that mentions that a man in ochre robes had been sniffing round after high end magic items, but left the city in a real hurry just recently. Offer a reward for the return of the item. Etcetera, etcetera.
-Cross
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Trithereon
A robot with powers
(6/10/03 2:47 am)
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Re: Theft?
Quote:
As to the guild issue, ask yourself this: what if the PC thinks of that, and attempts to make contact with the guild?
That's fine by me as it just means that I now have my hooks into him! I can give him quests that he can not refuse. I can demand a cut of everything he makes; 10% is a good starting percentage (like tithes for a cleric/paladin) but would be definitely higher if guild resources are used. The joining of an organized crime guild should never be done just to get a few coins. Its dangerous to do business with people who will kill you if become a liability ... or it become convienient to further their own goals.
I never take such things lightly, nor do my players.
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Taelohn
A song from the sixties
(6/10/03 2:43 pm)
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Re: Theft?
First, he talked to the people in the store, posing as though he was interested in various items, in order to learn their location - and to gain familiarity with the area, for purposes of Scry, Teleport, etc. With Detect Magic, Dispel Magic and Disable Device, he was able seek out and disable traps. Spider Climbing along the ceiling while Invisible (and with a Change Self spell in place as well, incase someone could see through the Invisibility), while Moving Silently allowed him to avoid guards (and he had a few other spells to deal with them, just in case). He managed to take about four minor wonderous items and make his escape unnoticed.
He thought this out quite well, I thought. Since I don't think he plans to do it again, and that not too much was stolen, I'm not sure any thieves' guild or the like would take much notice. Espically since no one would know who did it, anyway. And how dangerous - or rather, what level - would these theives be? The average person is not a high level, and even if the theives somehow did find out about this, cared enough about it, and somehow knew who it was - if they're just a bunch of low level rogues, they'll get themselves incinerated.
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Trithereon
A robot with powers
(6/10/03 9:55 pm)
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Re: Theft?
Well, its your campaign and you must do what you think best ... but please consider the following:
1) Your PC is not the first wizard/rogue to ever walk the streets of Verbobonc and his well thought out plans are nothing new. Any "magic shop" owner is going to take every precaution against magical theft, and explore every avenue to recover his goods. I don't see him saying "Darn, I lost another four mundane magic items this week. I sure wish there was something I could do about it."
2) It is highly unlikely that in a town the size of Verbobonc the theives guild is run by a bunch of low-level rogues. My guess is that the levels involved run from a bunch of 1st level cutpurses to 5th level enforcers to 10th level bosses to a 15+ level guildmaster. This doesn't include the plethora of fighters, wizards, sorcerers and priests who help run a city wide crime syndicate. These people are likely very greedy and evil. They will not take lightly anyone cutting into their business.
3) In a city the size of Verbobonc there could be a group of mid to high level NPCs that make a living as bounty hunters and who go after people just like your PC. Your outsmarted magic shop owner gladly pays these ruthless and professional adventurers to seek out his lost items and punish the brash individual who stole from his shop.
4) If your magic shop owner is a member of a local wizards guild then he may get help from them as well. It's in the best interests of the members of a wizards guild to seek out and punish those who steal from its members because it may well be that they are next the victims of this magical hit-and-run theft.
In a world full of magic there must be some way to curtail magic-enhanced theft, or else you invite every wizard in the world to just stroll off with whatever he wants. I suggest you look at the big picture and take note that if gone unchecked this will not be the last time your PCs comes up with a "well thought out plan" to aquire some magic items. Your PC isn't the first and won't be the last to use magic-enhanced larceny techniques. There should be defenses and there should be consequenses.
You don't have to kill your PC for his "well thought out plan" but he the should feel heat from this bold action. Otherwise, you run the risk of him feeling that, as he grows even more powerful, that he can run rough-shod over your campaign world with impunity.
Finally, try to think of it this way: If your wizard/rogue PC retired from adventure and invested his hard earned gold into a magic shop and then that shop was robbed. To what lengths would that PC go to get his revenge and stop it from ever happening again?
Trithereon
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Cordo Crowfoot
A trophy
(6/11/03 1:48 am)
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Re: Theft?
If a player of mine indicated an interest in that, I would warn him that his PC knows he is getting into a high risk gamble, and that the player needs to be ok with the fact that if the PC screws up, and is caught, then the character will be out of the campaign - dead, rotting in jail, or too busy running from angry wizards to fight the temple.
This shouldn't at all be a convenient source of cash or magic items.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Taelohn
Faen
(6/11/03 3:16 pm)
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Re: Theft?
Indeed, I recognize that many others like him would have existed in the past, and that the city would have had to adapt to this. My first thought was also that his idea was impossible. But then I was thinking - what, exactly, was there to stop him?
I'm not one to say "No, you can't do that" to any PC who wants to try something - if it's within their abilities, they can do it. The results and/or consequences are another matter, of course.
So I came up with some magic traps and a few guards, in line with what I figured the store owner would probably have (he wasn't a high level, nor did he have any really valuable items). And the PC found and got around these things, got the items he wanted, and escaped.
Did I make it too easy? Probably. What's done is done, though - the items are his now (they weren't very powerful, anyway). Will anyone come after him? Judging by the fact that he was never seen, and that the items weren't of great value, it's not too likely at this point that he'll be caught. I'll keep in mind all that's been said in this thread incase it happens again, though, because that would seem like more than a coincidence.
I don't think he's planning to do it again, however. Though, if he did, he'd probably disguise himself, as well as leave evidence of some sort, in order to incriminate someone else - like another party member. Or a member of the theives guild...
Well, thanks for all the thoughts - I'll keep them in mind. My original question (and where I probably made an error) was more along these lines, though: if you were designing the defenses for a shop, what would you do?
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madfox
Verrik
(6/12/03 12:12 am)
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Re: Theft?
You might be surprised what can be done with divination magic. There is this useful spell 'object lore', designed by Monte Cook, that would make leaving items behind to incriminate somebody else fail misserable. There are also several more divination spells that pierce through disguises or even be able to find a thief without anybody having seen the culprit. Though those spells are relatively high level and probably would not be used for minor thefts. In any event, have chat immidiately with the particular player if his going to frame his fellow PCs. Even if the players are alright with such behaviour, it can seriously disrupt the flow of your campaign. I have seen more then one campaign go down the drain because players began a powerstrugle amongst one another.
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Trithereon
Litorian
(6/12/03 6:03 am)
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Re: Theft?
Quote:
Well, thanks for all the thoughts - I'll keep them in mind. My original question (and where I probably made an error) was more along these lines, though: if you were designing the defenses for a shop, what would you do?
Number one: never have magic shops. If my players want to buy magic they go to a wizards guilds or clerics temple. Small magic shops are just too easy to knock off and not likely to have the resources neccessary to defend its stock. A potion seller, who makes his own potions must expend XP to create them. XP that he risked his life for! A wizards guild and clerics temple are formidable organizations with resources capable of defending its stock of magic. My players have had to negotiate with these organizations from the beginning. Some still wield their first magic sword they ever found (enhanced from a +1 sword to +2, sword, then to a +2 flaming sword, then to a +2 flaming keen sword). Many of their wonderous items were crafted for them, as relying on the luck to find what you want is not best. Sure this take time, but they have had it ... so far.
Number two: If you're going to have magic shops that are run by low level NPCs without the resources to defend their shop then make sure they have the neccessary contacts to exact revenge. This could be a thieves guild, it could be a wizards guild, it could be a league of bounty hunters, it could be a benevolent uncle who is a high level wizard! Any trap/guard/ward can be overcome by x-level wizard/rogue/priest. The trick is making the player NOT want to do it because he fears just retribution. For every spell that is used to overcome a trap/guard/ward there are other spells to hunt down and punish the transgressor.
My players know two things about my campaign.
1) If it seems too easy, it usually means that there'll be hell to pay later.
2) Lying, stealing, cheating and murdering to get ahead usually gets you killed because what comes around, goes around.
I never tell a player he CAN'T do something. I just ask him very seriously if that is what he REALLY wants to do. Sometimes they get away with their ill-gotten booty. However, they know that eventually, if they keep playing with fire, the hammer of justice will plow them into the ground like the little ball of dirt that they are. Its inevitable, like winning the anti-lottery, that you risk pissing off the wrong person who has the funds and will to make your life miserable.
Of course, even knowing all that I still have players who insist on trying to lie, cheat and steal their way to fame and fortune. The typical type-A risk-taking personality who eats, drinks and plays merry for tomorrow they may die. They like the fact that at any moment the jig could be up!
Overall, I don't spend time guarding every little shop in town against PC theft. Most of my players know better. The few who don't never make a habit out of tempting fate just for a few trinkets. Plus, my other players remind the roguish types that retribution dont' often distiguish between the culprits and the friends of culprits and what ever heat they bring on themselves eventually burns the innocent.
Once again, I don't think I answered your question. But hey, it was fun typing it!
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Taelohn
Faen
(6/12/03 7:15 am)
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Re: Theft
Actually, that was even more useful.
Hrmmm....
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Siobharek
Verrik
(6/12/03 10:17 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Theft
I like the no magic shop thought. It's such a fantasy staple that I just included them IMC without a second thought, but not having them is much better and forces the PCs to interact with the movers & shakers of the world.
Consider that little thing nabbed for my next campaign 
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
malthazar
Human
(6/12/03 10:56 am)
Reply
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Re: Theft
Here's a thought that just occured to me for an effective, instant karma approach to defending a magic shop (if you want them in your game). The really valuable items are kept in a safe under the shop owners bed, in a Rope Trick space, or some other inaccessable place, while a cache of cursed items is kept in a easily broken safe, or other apparently guarded location, in the shop proper. If I owned a magic shop that's what I would do (assuming I could get a hold of cursed items).
Another idea is to use the spell magic aura on a few prominent items in the shop to confuse a thief with detect magic. It's a simple 1st level spell that could save a shop owner a lot of money if he is burgularized.
m
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Cordo Crowfoot
Faen
(6/12/03 6:24 pm)
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Re: Theft
IMC I do have "shops" as per the Verbobonc write up, however they mostly have items up to the 2000gp level, with the rare exception of a more expensive item up to 6000gp. After all, that's the only kind of item that there will be much movement on...
My players on their last trip to Verbobonc were first reaching the level of being able to commission larger items (they each had about 14,000gp to spend after wiping out everything from the west entrance to the dwarven temple) and at first were shocked when I told them that waiting lists for commissioned items were upwards of one to two years. You may have detected some of the irritation in the log...
However I addressed this by having Terjon "pull some high-level strings" in the church of St. Cuthbert to get their commissions prioritized, so in the end they got what they wanted anyway.
I liked this solution as:
1) It avoids the infamous Dungeon Master's Guide as shopping catalogue problem, letting players know that everything in their just can't be bought and sold on a whim when they are in town.
2) It also makes them feel they are getting some support in their quest from the authorities. And the "support" doesn't unbalance the campaign.
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madfox
Verrik
(6/13/03 3:26 am)
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Re: Theft
Only the poorest and least interesting shops in my campaigns are only protected by just a lock. As others have said, in a world where invisibility is relatively common no sane shopkeeper does not have a dog around trained to react aggresively towards invisible creatures. Hanging a lot of cords with little bells in all dooropenings is also a very good idea. That way an invisible creature has an even more difficult time sneaking in. If the shop owner is paranoid enough he will keep his gold close enough to his bed to awake when a thief enters and steps on all those shells that cover his floor. That are more or less three simple and cheap precautions. A slightly richer shopowner will have several locks and definitely several bolts preferably strengthened by an arcane lock.
If a city is plagued by thefts, shopowners might also band together. Instead of keeping their wares in their own shop, they might keep most of it in one or two warehouses shared by friends. This way they can pool their resources and afford two or more nightwatches and perhaps even some glyphs. Magic mouths btw are cheaper then glyphs and unlike glyphs they are not traps persee. So they are more difficult to detect. It should also not surprise me that typically in a shop fakes would be on display and that the real things are in a small vault. This would fit perfectly well with the idea of cursed items laying around.
Of course, the truly rich would have forbiddance in effect, lead laced walls, permanent illusionary traps with the real traps being hidden behind Nystul's Undectable aura and so on. Robbing such shops though would be an adventure in itself and even if robbing them will be successfull, not being arrested would be a follow up adventure.
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