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Caedrel
A song from the sixties
(6/10/03 3:25 pm)
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The black fruit (long)
Just something I thought I'd raise for discussion - it's long, with some questions at the end.
Although it's been a long time since I was a player myself, I remember how nice something like an ability score boost is. So, when my party climbed the ladder, were amazed at how the obeslisk was balanced on such a fine point, and touched it, I thought that was close enough to the written sequence of events for that PC to be spirited away to the black node and hear the voice of Tharizdun...
Returning to the party, the PC was pretty leery of eating anything from such a disreputable source. Who knew what it would do? They debated this for a while, and one of the other PCs (the fighter named Mojo) decided to check the voice out for himself. When he got the fruit in his hands, he decided "What the heck", and ate it - I got him to roll a d6, and I told him he could feel a surge of energy through his body as his Strength increased. When he returned, the rest of the team were aghast - they half expected him to turn into a slavering madman, I think, and attack them wildly.
This didn't stop them all from entering and at least obtaining a fruit. In fact, they all went back a second time and got a another fruit. But no-one ate them, fearful of any side effects. Ulfgar, our dwarven cleric of Moradin, was particularly paranoid, since he wasn't sure what the Soul Forger would think about the whole deal. I thought it showed the right sort of respect for the thing they'd discovered  , so when they checked in with Y'Dey, she mused on the matter and verbalised a thought about how it was possible, sometimes, that deities empowered a gift without regard to who obtained it. [Side note: This actually fits quite well with my conceptualisation of Tharizdun - being imprisoned, he has only a partial awareness of the external world. His power still seeps into the material world and can be used to build places such as the black cyst, but it can only be programmed to behave in a specific way - like a recording, rather than a genuine manifestation of his consciousness.]
The party kicked this idea around for a while, and headed off to Nulb. After seeing no adverse effects in Mojo in that time, Reeksy the Ranger/Rogue decided to give it a go. I got him to roll a d6, and he had an immense feeling of vitality as he got a boost to his Constitution. It was exactly the stat he needed another point in, and he was jubilant. He instantly decided to eat his second fruit, and was going "YEAH!" when he rolled his Constitution again. It vanished quickly when I described the gut wrenching pain that he felt and the dark voice booming mockingly in his head - everyone laughed  [It was at this point that we discovered that restoration will cure permanent ability damage such as this if cast quickly enough - that's sort of bothered me a bit, since it makes permanent ability damage not much more threatening than temporary ability damage... but anyway...]
Anyway, everyone quickly discarded their second fruit and ate their first. Ulfgar was still reluctant, but when he was doing his regular morning prayer to Moradin, he got a sense it might be okay; so he ate it in the end. I got them to roll for the stat - some got a relevant one, others didn't, and they were all fine with that. We all had an interesting time with a nice reward, and it had developed out of something I hadn't foreseen.
Anyway, moving forwards and the party is about to leave Hommlet for Rastor. Some of the players are wanting a change of pace and wanting to play a new character, and I'm fine with that - for some, these were their first 3e characters, and after playing and learning more about the game, they're not too keen on some of the choices they'd made along the way (I think some of it also came from hanging out on the min/max boards at ENWorld, but that's okay too... ).
It then occurred to me that the black fruit could become just another powergaming tool - the old PCs tell the new PCs about it, they go down to the obelisk, they get a fruit and an ability score boost. If I'd stuck to the module as written, the torch of revealing would have been a natural limiting factor on it - but even with it, there's enough incense for several iterations of new PCs to benefit from it, something I'm wasn't happy with.
So, I started wondering what other controls I could put on it, and was inspired by the Best of the Boards Madness index, on which eating the black fruit is a +1 contributor. Along with the ability score boost, the PCs started having bad dreams - very bad dreams. Strange, misshapen things would move through them, whispering terrible secrets that would cause them to wake suddenly. They details were always vague and unsettling in the morning - in fact, in the warm light of day they felt foolish and ashamed about it, and did not speak of it to one another. It gave me a mechanism where Ulfgar could pray desperately to Moradin, and be granted a vision of dwarves being mowed down by horrors and abominations controlled by spiky helmeted priests (foreshadowing the CRM); it also gave me an in game reason to retire the characters that were going to be replaced - they sought solace at Terrigan's Tavern, drinking to ease their discomfort, spending their money and growing more distant and unable to function properly. It gave the PCs who were continuing another motivator to keep going, and Y'Dey a reason to seal the obeslisk cavern - for the more Tharizdun's power was drawn on in that place, the more of his awareness would gather there, and the more perilous the fruit would become. In fact, any subsequent adventurers would be driven insane by consuming the fruit... so I closed that gap, and got some good campaign building stuff out of it to boot!
So, I guess my question is directed to those whose parties have also benefited from the black fruit: did you stop later PCs from doing the same thing? If so, how?
[Edit: accidentally hit "Edit Post" without the Preview box box ticked before I was finished]
PS. If I seem a little "full of my own brilliance", I hope you'll forgive me and let me know... I just love how beautifully and elegantly some of this framework came together, almost of its own accord, and I have no other forum in which to share it. It's one of the only things I regret about being the DM - it can be lonely at times 
Edited by: Caedrel at: 6/10/03 4:12 pm
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Trithereon
A robot with powers
(6/10/03 11:37 pm)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Out of six PCs I had one eat the black fruit and none went back for seconds. Why? Because I described the experience as completely unwholesome that they felt that even though the one PC had benefited from his experience that because of its source such boon must be tainted in some way.
If your dwarven cleric of Moradin knew that a potion found would raise a random attribute but was made from the sacraficial blood of a child would he still drink it? This is a gift from an evil god, arguably the most evil god ever. Why in the name of Moradin did he think that anything good could ever come from it?
Personally, if I was playing a good cleric then I'd consider it an affront to all that is good and wholesome to partake of a magical fruit given to me by the most evil god in the world. It just doesn't make good roleplaying sense for a good cleric to willingly choose to accept such a thing, no matter the benefits.
Metagame thinking ... no drawbacks ... sure go for it. Roleplaying thinking ... no way Jose!
Now, I'd not give XP penalties against your good-aligned PCs for this metagame thinking but I'd definitely give him some very, very bad dreams. Tharizdun=bad.
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Cordo Crowfoot
A trophy
(6/11/03 12:58 am)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
From "he got a sense it might be ok" I infer that was the DM prompting him...
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madfox
A guitar
(6/11/03 1:10 am)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Personally, I never had to do much about it. Two of the PCs ate the fruit. The others were not willing to accept a blessing from such an obvious evil source. Later though an insane cultists treated the PCs as one of their own (usefull in acquiring information out of the rambling lunatic), which gave the other PCs the idea the fruit might truly have tainted the soul of those who ate. They are still waiting for some vile effect or curse later on and I am not going to contradict them. In another campaign I did use the nightmares, though I am not sure the players made the connection with the fruit.
One thing though, at first you hint that it is OK to eat the fruit through among other things Moradin. Personally, I would be a bit irritated when my DM suddenly does give eating the fruit a negative consequence. By that way you treating it a bit arbitrary. Personally, I would have the clerics of St. Cuthbert advice strongly against accepting the blessing even if there are no negative consequences. They tend to be fanatic about evil and not the kind of persons that would use evil to fight evil. That though is my personal opinion and if your players are ok with the idea, there is obvious no problem.
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Trithereon
A robot with powers
(6/11/03 2:17 am)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Quote:
From "he got a sense it might be ok" I infer that was the DM prompting him...
Yeah, sorry about that.
I knew that but was distracted and pressed for time when posting. My reply was meant more as a comment on how I handled the black fruit of Tharizdun.
I should realize by now that if I can't devote the neccessary time to a coherent post that I should just hit the back button and post later.
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GlordFunkelhand
A cup of coffee
(6/11/03 3:46 am)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
In my group everybody ate from the fruit but the Paladin.
Since I didn't want to punish the Paladin for good roleplaying, I gave him a +1 attack bonus (luck) and a +2 (luck) for all WILL saves since he proved a strong will here.
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madfox
A guitar
(6/11/03 4:11 am)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Isn't experience points a much better way to award good roleplaying? In any event, the reward you gave is much better then a simple +1 inherent boost to a random attribute.
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GlordFunkelhand
Human
(6/11/03 2:16 pm)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Partly. It's just +1 to attack so not as powerful as a STR increase. Magical items with +1 attack are pretty common (ok, the luck bonus will stack with them). Will saves are not that common as well.
The other party members managed to get pretty fitting increases (just the fighter had bad luck, he rolled charisma) so the paladin bonus is fitting, IMO. Another point is that all other party members got a magical permanent increase of their main attribute from their last GM.
So, with this bonus the Paladin is more or less on par with the others.
I normally adjust the XP somewhat to adjust for their not that common stats.
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Caedrel
Faen
(6/11/03 11:10 pm)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Hey, thanks for all the feedback, guys - much appreciated!
Quote:
From "he got a sense it might be ok" I infer that was the DM prompting him...
I did prompt him a little: I suppose that I didn't want him to miss out on a benefit that the rest of the party were getting, especially when I didn't have any plans to introduce any downsides: I did that later to try and reduce the metagame temptation for newer PCs. I hadn't thought of the XP reward for good roleplaying if he refused to eat it - I'll definitely remember this if there's a next time.
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If your dwarven cleric of Moradin knew that a potion found would raise a random attribute but was made from the sacraficial blood of a child would he still drink it?
I'm pretty sure the answer would be a resounding "No" - not only for him, but for the rest of the party...
Quote:
Why in the name of Moradin did he think that anything good could ever come from it?
I had thought of the fruit as a thing of power that was created by Tharizdun but not one in which he exercised any ongoing control or influence over... like he'd set up some sort of "cosmic vending machine" that dispensed a reward to whomever met the criteria. He did not (or could not) expend the effort to ensure that everyone who met these criteria were actually his worshippers. With this perspective, I'd imagined the PCs as exploiting a loophole in Tharizdun's system, gaining the benefit but not suffering from any consequences. From this point of view, the fruit could have come from St Cuthbert, Pelor, or any other good aligned deity - the key part was what they had to do to obtain the fruit. In this case, it was do a couple of things that would normally only be known to the worshippers of Tharizdun, but were only mechanistic rituals and not actually evil ones in themselves (touch the pillar as opposed to sacrifice a child themselves).
Having mounted that defence, it breaks down a bit because I did subsequently introduce some downsides to the fruit with the bad dreams. I suppose I could argue that these don't actually represent an ongoing connection with Tharizdun, but are flavour type descriptions only - much like the Tharizdun themed changes to the Deck of Many Things in the Best of the Boards... no actual changes, but ones that give a lot more atmosphere and creepiness to the whole situation. Overall, though, I feel a bit disappointed with myself now, because I didn't pick up on this wider context
So, to make me feel better, I'm going to nitpick on some very minor and pedantic points
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This is a gift from an evil god, arguably the most evil god ever.
This depends on how deliberately you think Tharizdun has embraced madness and destruction. You could mount an argument that Tharizdun is more primal in nature - an elemental (as in basic) entity that is heedless and careless of that which it destroys. To my way of thinking, this would shift him a bit closer to the Neutral end of the value spectrum and make those evil deities that deliberately set out to hurt others - such as Nerull and Erythnul - more "evil" in that sense.
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the clerics of St. Cuthbert... tend to be fanatic about evil
While this is true of many St Cuthbertines, I'd say a significant proportion of them were actually fanatical about lawbreakers rather than evildoers...
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a potion found would raise a random attribute but was made from the sacraficial blood of a child would he still drink it?
I was struck by the parallels between this and the issue of whether we use the medical knowledge obtained by the Nazis in their experiments on concentration camp victims: it's a helpful and useful body of knowledge (the potion) obtained through foul and heinous means (the sacrifice). Does our employing it now condone, encourage, or lionise the means or the persons by which it was delivered? No, since we did not ask them to do so, were not in a position to stop them from doing so, we did what we could to stop them from doing so, and we did not ask them - explcitly or implicitly - for this information. How is this different from accepting the above potion? It all depends on who's giving it and who's asking for it...
Cheers!
Caedrel
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madfox
Verrik
(6/12/03 12:21 am)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Quote:
It's just +1 to attack so not as powerful as a STR increase. Magical items with +1 attack are pretty common (ok, the luck bonus will stack with them). Will saves are not that common as well.
A +1 to strength -which is what the fruit gives- is a +0.5 to attack and damage. Hence a +1 to attack is about equally powerful, especially since it is a luck bonus and hence stacks with about anything. Further then that, the fruit gives a +1 inherent bonus to a RANDOM ability, meaning that a useless ability could be boosted. You must be playing a completely different game then I do, if you state that will saves are not common. All in itself the save is not more often used then the others, but when you fail them the character is out combat or worst, fighting against your companions. I think the players of fighting classes in my campaigns would murder to get a +2 luck bonus on their saves  Then again, it is a lot easier to get a +1 luck bonus on saves then attack rolls. So, I would chose what the paladin got above what the fruit gives without thinking. Now that is not nessecarily a bad thing for your game, it is just that I think differently on this subject.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Giant
(6/12/03 2:15 am)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
I think you can't go wrong with the approach of asking yourself "What is the most interesting and most compelling way I can handle the fruit?"
To me I agree with you that it just becomes a metagaming tool, and not that interesting if it is just a plain stat bonus. Introducing the dreams et. al to really make the PCs think about if they did the right thing on the other hand is much deeper.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Trithereon
Litorian
(6/12/03 3:23 am)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Disclaimer: The following responses are all my own humble opinion. I make no claims to be right nor that anyone else is wrong.
Quote:
This depends on how deliberately you think Tharizdun has embraced madness and destruction. You could mount an argument that Tharizdun is more primal in nature - an elemental (as in basic) entity that is heedless and careless of that which it destroys.
One can also make the arguement that he is the very embodiment of madness and destruction: A conscious primal force that willfully, gleefully and for his own purpose drives all to madness and then destroys all. Even the other evil gods fear him. A force so powerfully malignant that they worked with (or at least did not interfere) the gods of goodness to imprison him. The evil of Nerul and Erythnul pale in comparison.
Quote:
I was struck by the parallels between this and the issue of whether we use the medical knowledge obtained by the Nazis in their experiments on concentration camp victims ... How is this different from accepting the above potion?
I'd have to say that drawing comparisons between real world events and D&D is never a strong platform to stand on when making a moralistic premise. From a pure mechanistic philosophy (a viewpoint tending to explain phenomena only by reference to physical or biological causes) the world of D&D has magic, true pantheonic gods and an absolute morality (represented by those gods) and our real life world does not (your world view may differ).
Therefore, it is my own personal opinion that knowlingly drinking a potion made from the blood of an innocent sacraficial sentient being is not-good in D&D. (take note, I didn't say it was an evil act) No matter how much a benefit it might bring accepting such unwholesomeness is just not morally compatible for a D&D character who professes to uphold the absolutes of moral goodness. Having said that even a good D&D person can make an unfavorable moral choice for the "benefit of mankind" and still be good. Making that same choice for pure personal gain is edging into that greedy, self-serving, I-don't-care attitude that partially defines the difference between a altruistic good person from a more selfish neutral/evil person.
In closing, my use of the potion idea was a poor choice to make the point I was trying to make. It is generally agreed that using 99% of the potions and scrolls found in D&D is a moralistically neutral act. That is a bless spell cast off a scroll created by a evil cleric is not seen as an evil act. The black fruit is in a realm of magic that is beyond the mortal ability to create. It is a gift from an evil god ... maybe even a bit of his own essense! In my campaign I made it quite clear that accepting such a gift, regardless of its benefits or seeming lack or drawbacks, is not-good.
I can appreciate all other interpretations of this, as we all have different campaigns. I accept that my campaign is no better and, I hope, no worse then another's. We all flavor our campaign based upon our own personal expectations and create worlds as varied as snowflakes. I hope you never take anything I say as some sort of condemnation of your campaign, as it is not my intent. I am just trying to share my own "world view" when it comes to D&D.
Enjoy
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GlordFunkelhand
Human
(6/12/03 3:51 am)
Reply
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Quote:
So, I would chose what the paladin got above what the fruit gives without thinking. Now that is not nessecarily a bad thing for your game, it is just that I think differently on this subject.
As I said, it's not only because the of the fruit, but also because to the fact that most of the others rolled well and already had a +1 attr bonus from their old GM (and the paladin is new in the party, so he doesn't have the bonus).
So, while the fruit does give +1 random, in that case it really was more like +1 to primary or secondary attribute of the class.
I agree that normally the +1 attack or just a +1 WILL would be enough. But now they have all around the same extra boni... so it's ok if I judge that the group is actually one level higher than their level indicates.
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Caedrel
Faen
(6/15/03 4:13 pm)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Quote:
I'd have to say that drawing comparisons between real world events and D&D is never a strong platform to stand on when making a moralistic premise.
I agree absolutely, and wasn't trying to mount a defense of my decision with it. I was only being petulant because my "elegant" outcome turned out to be not quite so elegant as I'd thought - much to my disappointment, since I want Good & Evil to really mean something in my campaign. I don't want my party stealing from the locals; I don't want my Verbobonc to be riven with political infighting; I don't like the Living Greyhawk suggestion that the Crook of Rao was a crock in the Flight of Fiends...
I haven't read your campaign log, Trithereon, but just from your general input on these boards, I suspect I'd like my world to be more like yours, so I'm saddened that I've done something you disapprove of - c'est la vie, I'll take it as a lesson in humility instead of hubris.
GlordFunkelhand, the decisions are yours to make - I'd just say this is an unusual sort of bonus for any PC to have and isn't the sort of thing to give lightly.
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Trithereon
Litorian
(6/15/03 9:30 pm)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Quote:
... so I'm saddened that I've done something you disapprove of - c'est la vie.
Heh, I've nothing to disapprove of. Indeed, I would argue that the way you handled it is by far more "Greyhawk-ish" then mine. Those early AD&D adventures, which I fondly recall playing, were rife with magical bonuses like the Black Fruit and most without any real drawbacks. It could be said that your interpretation is more historically accurate to Greyhawk.
So, let your players enjoy this little bonus. If there's any one god in Greyhawk who may not know that his "gifts" are being misused then it should be the one that's been imprisoned for ages.
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Roland the red
Faen
(6/16/03 2:42 pm)
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The Black Fruit
I also use the Madness point angle, and the Players are really taking to it..
I described the black fruit as "...a perversion of all that is wholesome, for it smells foul where other fruits smell fair, its texture is like the feel of a dead mans skin, rubbery and cold."
If they took a bite, then "...the fruit is suprisingly sweet. The insides are the color of raw meat and the juice the color of blood. As it slides down your throat you feel power surge through you and the desire to finish the fruit is nearly overwhelming...."
If they finished the fruit they got the random ability score and a madness point.
I told the player they are now suffering from a mild paranoia...(rather than the bad dreams)...their character truly thinks that EVERYONE is jealous of their power, and that they must protect themselves...even their friends should be held in suspiscion, especially those who will not eat of the Black Fruit of Power...
Very fun...
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Cordo Crowfoot
Faen
(6/16/03 4:02 pm)
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Re: The Black Fruit
Great description Roland!
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lightnng
Faen
(7/8/03 8:18 pm)
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Re: The Black Fruit
So... silly question... what would you think would be an appropriate XP award for NOT eating the fruit? That is, the characters that do gain the stat bonus, good for them. But I want to award the role players as well. How much? Assume 5th level characters.
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Trithereon
Verrik
(7/9/03 6:51 am)
Reply
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Re: The black fruit (long)
Quote:
what would you think would be an appropriate XP award for NOT eating the fruit?
"Virtue is its own reward. There's a pleasure in doing good which sufficiently pays itself."
If you must reward them for their upholding of their own virtues then you could do worse then divine blessing which betows a permanent +1 inherent bonus to a random ability score.
Do it like you might the fruit. Take them away from the table to tell them the good news. Bring a 1d6 for them to roll. Describe for them some cool dream sequence where they interact with an aspect of their god. Ask the player to not say anything about an ability increase to the others. If other players find out (because they know each other abilities by heart - and some players do) ask them to keep the knowledge in-character.
However, I am all for a concept of virtue being its own reward.
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lightnng
Faen
(7/9/03 7:08 am)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
I'm not awarding them for upholding their virtues, im awarding them for good role playing... :-) This is, after all, just a game.
I am happy with their having played their character's role well enough to drop the fruit even when I hinted strongly that it might be good. In fact, two of them summed it up in saying (separately): even if it does have some benefits, we dont want them, because they come from the dark god.
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Trithereon
Verrik
(7/9/03 7:28 am)
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Re: The black fruit (long)
I can understand the wanting to reward the player for his roleplaying. If you don't want to give them the +1 inherent bonus as a divine award then you could institute a "hero point" system as a reward.
I don't use it (but am considering it for my next campaign) but I've read about other DM who use these "hero points" as a way for players to get "another chance", or in some cases an "automatic success". You just decribe the dream encounter with the player's god and hand them a poker chip. Tell them they can return it to you when ever they want a second chance at a failed saving throw, or any other die roll they can think of.
However, if you do this you might want to consider giving it to the other players as a reward for good roleplaying and, maybe just as important, to the NPCs!
I usually just praise the player for making a good roleplaying decision - after the game, or even during the game if I am really impressed.
I know it aint much but where do you draw the line for awarding in-game rewards for good roleplaying? ... What happens when a player thinks he deserves a reward but you don't? Hopefully, we are all mature enough to handle a difference of opinion. But he might not say anything and quietly hold a grudge for this percieved slight.
Ah, I don't know. I'm all for group rewards.
Maybe I'm too grumpy. 
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