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(6/12/03 5:26 pm)
Help with/from Thrommel....(long)
I'm in trouble......

The group has killed Thrommel, the Necromancer cast Magic Jar and picked up on the "negative powered creature" and Thrommel failed his save (it's been a couple of sessions, but if he had to, he also beat the SR). The Succubus had picked up the Necromancer's body and had been told by Hedrack to take the body to his chambers. Thrommel spoke up (Jar'ed by the PC) and told the Succubus to leave the body alone. After making 2 or 3 Will saves against the Suc's "Detect Thoughts" spell, the Necro finally failed the save and the masquerade was up.

The Succubus let Hedrack know that it wasn't Thrommel and voiced her opinion. Somehow in the midst of the Succubus repeatedly trying her "Detect Thoughts" spell, the cleric (a cleric of Fharlanghn) had beat the Succubus on subsequent grapple checks and had wrested the body away and Teleported out. The Necromancer then Teleported (Verbal component only, I checked) to the bridge, causing Thrommel's vampire body to be utterly destroyed. Hedrack was, needless to say, upset by this turn of events.

The sorcerer made his check and recognized Thrommel for who he was, and when they returned his gear, they were appropriately rewarded. I played it that the royal family finally succeeded in a True Resurrection.

My problem is this: With summer approaching, I've had some players missing at certain times. We've rolled up a couple of NPC's, but they've been sucking up the XP's. The groups ECL has been suffering, but they've been making up for that lapse in numbers. I managed to capture one of the three PC's by Hedrack (in the hopes that he could be turned and could re-populate the Crater Ridge Mines). I introduced them to Varachan, and Varachan explained his side of the story. The Champion of Elemental Evil has been found, and most of those still remaining (other than the elementals and the Red Dragon at the fire gate) have left to reinforce the Temple ruins. The characters are SEVERELY lacking in the levels required (most at 10th, a couple at 11th) to be taking on the ruined Temple.

I've been thinking long and hard about Thrommel being urged by his deity to Atone for his "evilness" by helping the PC's cleanse the ruined Temple. According to the module, he has 3 levels of Paladin and 9 levels of Blackguard. Does that mean that he's now a 3rd level Paladin???? That would be suicide to send him into the Temple ruins. What are the rules for this, and is there any way to skirt them? I also realize that his sword can no longer be "unholy."

Just pleading for assistance in keeping my party from another possible TPK.

Thanks for the help.....

Click here to see the DM Assist.

Runechild (mod)[br] Council of Magisters
(6/12/03 9:29 pm)
Re: Help with/from Thrommel....(long)
My advice is to send him into the Recovered Temple and let him get killed again. Don't make him part of the party at all (the last thing you need is another NPC sucking up more XP).

Send him in as the head of his own raiding party -- only they get defeated. This gives you a plausible reason to downgrade the strength of the encounters in the Recovered Temple. Alter the descriptions so there are dead or captured paladins in amongst the rooms. (They made a valiant assault but were defeated.) Maybe the party has a chance to save Thrommel AGAIN.

Personally, I'd consider killing most of the giants and bumping off Falrinth. A 10th level party can take a beholder, so leave Kex.

Do NOT sharpen up the tactics. Run everything as written. Maybe even a little dumber (attribute that to the overconfidence of the DD's -- or maybe the assault has them rattled and they're REALLY trying to move things along.) Do NOT bring in reinforcements from the Outer Fane to bolster the Temple's defenses. (If you've already revealed this story point, have those reinforcements get killed by Thrommel's assault.)

In any case, I'd say keep the story moving -- get those PC's to the Ruined Temple. Maybe throw a random encounter or side trek in there to help them out XP-wise. You can also use a ragged survivor of Thrommel's party to foreshadow what's going on and maybe even outline the Temple's defenses.

Just keep the party the heroes. They did their part freeing Thrommel, don't let him jack the glory.

-Thrommel, who's a bit conflicted to find he's arguing for making himself inept.

Council of Magisters
Arcana Unearthed

(6/15/03 2:19 pm)
Re: Help with/from Thrommel....(long)
Thanks for the advice Thrommel, although I have to admit that you could never in your wildest dreams be "inept!!!!"

I was using Siobharek's (I believe) enhanced Outer Fane .doc for my campaign (here's hoping he's expanded those writings!!!!) because of the ease with which my players have gone through the first parts of the module. They're creative, and I have to give them that, but I'm failing them as a DM by not providing them with a credibile defense. We initially had 6 players, which I allowed because I figured it would eventually even out at later levels (even with some modifications). The problem is that recently, only three players have shown up, and it isn't the same three every time, hence my XP problem. I was outlining (in a similar document to Siobharek's by Cutting and Pasting into my new file) and realized how much there was left in the Outer Fane. I was only taking Hedrack along with the three Drow (Maracla, Dirass, and Zaratan), who had teleported in with the Succubus from the Outer Fane to ambush the PC's in the middle of the night. This was shortly after they had been knighted for returning Thrommel's items to Verbobonc, and were staying at an inn for the night. I screwed up the attack because I didn't realize you needed a slashing weapon to "sunder" a bow (not sure if that's 100% correct, but that's what the PHB states), and ended up retreating, but only after the Succubus had been "dimensionally anchored" and lost in the subsequent fight. I hadn't figured Naquent and others into the struggle, so we are going to replay the last couple of minutes of our session to let Varachan inform them of what's left. He will definitely inform them of the importance of the founding of "The Champion of Elemental Evil," but I will probably allow them to adventure a little in the Outer Fane to get the rest of the party at least up to 11th (the rest are close), and maybe one or two up to 12th, depending on who shows up.

I have a "forked path" aligned in front of me, depending on their decision. I'll go ahead and plan the adventure as if they'll stick around to try to gain levels (which I'm sure they will), but also have the option of using your ideas to hinder the Ruined Temple forces. Their decision on Kella is also a HUGE factor on what happens to them. I hate to use your idea of killing off the giants, because the ogres would go LONG before the giants. Granted, I could legitimately say that the orgres are reinforcements of the giants, and I would LOVE to use the "lone survivor of the attack" to inform them of what they're up against, particularly escaping with Falrinth's journal to show them what they're up against, but, again, it depends on their decision.

As always, your input is treasured. This board has been a godsend. Anytime I see a question on the Wizards boards about RttToEE, I link to this board with the promise that "any questions can be answered here!!!!"

Thanks again,

Editted to fix the spelling of Siobharek's name (more than once)!!!!!

Click here to see the DM Assist.

Edited by: JamesL85 at: 6/15/03 2:21 pm
(6/15/03 11:32 pm)

Re: Help with/from Thrommel....(long)
Hey, someone's using my stuff. Great! I hope you like it, and if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask - either here or to me directly (s.thustrup(at)

Truth to be said, I scaled the whole thing back. After they met the demonically infused Earth Elemental (2 casualties) and before that a boosted Ukemil with Reokallitan in tow along with the lions, who managed to ambush them, I almost had a player rebellion on my hands, so scale back I did.

But I'll still be more than happy to answer any questions and expand any remarks I may have entered into my doc.s.

Siobharek is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

(6/16/03 12:56 pm)
Re: Help with/from Thrommel....(long)
To answer your other technical question...although this is irrelevant if he's dying off-stage.

Thrommel would be a Ex-Pal 3, Ex-Black 9. He would have the combined BAB of both (+12), the combined saves of both, any skills and feats he's obtained along the way, and absolutely 0 special abilities, spells, or anything else. Basically, he would be a 12th level fighter with odd saves and a serious shortage of feats.

Reroll his HPs according to a Pal3/Black9, and assign him a reasonable Con score.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

(6/16/03 8:40 pm)
Re: Help with/from Thrommel....(long)
<snip>Thrommel would be a Ex-Pal 3, Ex-Black 9.<snip>

Technically this would be correct however; I would make Thrommel an Ex-Pal 12 since the 9 levels of Blackguard are most likely levels traded from Ex-Pal.


(6/17/03 5:39 am)
Re: Help with/from Thrommel....(long)
Thrommel would be a Ex-Pal 3, Ex-Black 9.
That's true, for about an hour. As soon as he's revived, someone would cast a Miracle to make him an Ex-Pal 12, followed by an Atonement to restore him to Pal 12. IMO, if you've read what the BoB has to say about how Thrommel became a vampire, the "willingly" clause in Atonement definitely does not apply, and even if it did, if they're True Resurrecting him, he's worth another Miracle.

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