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ltplf
Human
(6/21/03 8:33 am)
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How to defeat Big U?
In this first fight of my RttToEE, the young blue dragon killed them all.
And then I let Tharizdun reset that fight, and cursed all the characters(similar with the evil vision in 32D). And then the dragon had them all killed again.
Anyway, I reseted for second time(for no reason this time). And for the third time, they all died.
We had a Bbn2/Ftr2 , a Mnk4, a Wiz4, a Clr4.(A Rog4 was absent at that time.) All had at least moderate ability scores.I knew that they were short of game experience and sometimes not serious enough. But It cannot be denied that Big U is quite powerful for them.
How did your players deal with that dragon? I need your comments. Many thx.
Edited by: ltplf at: 6/21/03 8:35 am
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HeadofHesla
Human
(6/21/03 10:12 am)
Reply
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Re: How to defeat Big U?
My group of 4 pcs took two trys to muscle their way past the dragon.
The first time they left hommlett with a gaggle of npc's, Xaod, Chat, and Rethidoor the bard. Both Xaod and Reth were killed by the dragon as the party fled. Chat used his wand and was ready to assassinate when the dragon started to chase the fleeing party. Seeing the way clear he headed to confer with the cultists in the moathouse dungeon, hopefully coming up with a plan to get them and the artifacts out.
The second try the party now prepared for a fight with a tough opponent returned and put the dragon down for good. Big U was down to his last 10 hps and was going to turn and run when missile fire brought him down.
Its a tough encounter, one that usually surprises the pcs, and if they don't have the sense to run and prepare properly then Big U will chew through them.
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ltplf
Human
(6/21/03 6:45 pm)
Reply
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Re: Re: How to defeat Big U?
The first try when the dragon used Hover to blind them they did run...into the great hall of moathouse...and were killed by the angry dragon(My precious!) there.
Then I suggested them that you need not always fight to death. After cursed by the Dark Lord and came back the second try They retreated to the tower and...fight to death
So this time I said directly: "Why did you keep thinking it's a fight-to-death battle?" They seemed to be aware of something. The third try gnome wizard dropped his Cloak of Elvenkind and asked: "This is my guarantee. Let us in! We can take all the underground treasures back to you. All the treasures we could get will be yours." But unfortunately Big U has Bluff+13, Diplomacy +15 and Sense Motive +8...
BTW, they left Hommlet with Questin Himmble. But on the way to moathouse he was killed by an Ankheg. They buried his corpus and took his daggers and Lens of Detection happily
Edited by: ltplf at: 6/21/03 6:52 pm
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DestyNova1
Human
(6/21/03 7:46 pm)
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Hmm
If so many bad things are happening, you have a few choices.
1.Have the dragon finished off by the cultists. They succede due to the dragon being so wounded from previous fights.
2.Have the dragon leave for some reason or other.
3. If the party still can't do it, you may just have to shut the game down. It sucks, but its better then copping out with fudged dice rolls and deus ex machinas.
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ltplf
Human
(6/21/03 8:20 pm)
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Restart
I displaced one player, and let them prepare new characters with new classes. But I'm still not sure how to deal with changes of the first challenge...I don't want to use the young blue dragon any more...For almost the same players, it should be better if using another type of greedy monster(Perhaps with one class level to adjust to CR 5).
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DestyNova1
Human
(6/21/03 8:43 pm)
Reply
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re:Restart
Try several smaller monsters. Perhaps Bugbears invaded the moathouse and drove the cultists down below. Deduct HP as battle wounds. Don't give out any treasure for this fight other then cheap weapons and armor.
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genlang
Faen
(6/22/03 1:46 am)
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Re: Killing Big U
My group of 6 third level characters and 1 first level kobold flunky killed U with receiving almost no damage.
Let me tell you how:
A) A really really sneaky rogue with really really good rolls for Balance and Move Silently scouted around the edges of the moathouse. Ended up making just a tiny bit of noise and getting trapped in the old kitchen -- until he found the old chimney and scrabbled (silently!) up it.
B) Knowing that the blue existed, they were very very very nervous, but decided to try to kill it anyway. And so devised a good plan involving the cleric's silenced stone escorting everyone to spots around the courtyard where they waited for the cleric to summon a 'distraction'. I won't go into all the nitpicky details, but these guys had a really good plan and executed it well.
C) Hot&cold dice. I couldn't roll to save my life (except against the summoned celestial badgers), and they couldn't miss with their dice. Adding to the damage output were everyone's action chips (each chip granting 1d4 to a roll, each of them having four chips).
Looking back over the fight, I don't see how I could have done anything differently. My tactics seemed sound, and had the dice cooperated there would have been a red spot where the party's fighter had been. Hover was wonderful, made them all retreat (except the fighter, who was slow and choose to try to keep an ear on the dragon so as to not be totally offguard. Not that it helped much), but there were seven of them (well, six. The monk was treed on the roof of the eastern wing almost all through the fight, landing there after a bad balance check for trying to walk the curtain wall -- escaping from the ooze lurking in what was to be the monk's point of entry into the building. *grin*) and only one of him, and eventually they wore him down with arrows, and the rogue finished off with a charge that landed him in a flanking position and it was byebye dragon.
The PCs are taking care to not act cocky over this, because they realize their good luck and don't want me throwing anything at them to humble them. (It won't help. There's a roper and a bone ooze with the party's name on it, just waiting to show the PCs the value of running away)
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GlordFunkelhand 
Faen
(6/23/03 4:10 am)
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Re: Killing Big U
What are action chips?
Sorry if this is a dumb question... 
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Offgall Fizziwigg
Faen
(6/23/03 8:24 am)
Reply
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Re: Killing Big U
They are potato chips that you eat before battle. They act like Pac Man pills allowing you to deal more damage in battle!  I really don't know either...
This is not an unwinnable battle. Tell the wizard to memorize some effective spells. Tell him to buy some good scrolls when he or she makes a character. Tell the group to think about tactics - like spread out so they won't all be in range of his breath weapon. This dragon is tough, but it is juvenile. It's definitely doable.
If your group is having a hard time with the dragon, I guarantee there will be a TPK at the obelisk between the grell and the crazed, flying cleric.
If they are newby players, I would suggest running something to get them from 1st to 4th level. That would provide them with the basics of combat and spells. This adventure is a doozy. The fights only get tougher. Sounds like they need to learn some more.
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Trithereon
Verrik
(6/23/03 9:29 am)
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Re: How to defeat Big U?
Two words: Tanglefoot bag
I hate these things! Ranged touch attack (ignores natural armor); automatically entangled if hit (-2 to attack rolls, -4 penalty to effective Dexterity; on a failed Reflex saving throw and your stuck to the ground (no Hover, no Move, Strength Check DC 27 to break free); successful save and you are limited to half speed because of all the goo on you!
A successful hit with a tanglefoot bag(s) early in the battle, combined with resist elements (electric) and some cooperative fighting and Big U. (who is only average sized) is not that tough of a fight.
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 Infiniti2000
Verrik
(6/23/03 9:55 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: How to defeat Big U?
"I hate these things!"
That's because they are broken. I do not allow them (or thunderstones) IMC. I'd sooner allow fragmentation grenades.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
Faen
(6/23/03 10:49 am)
Reply
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Re: How to defeat Big U?
If my PCs start using them, and they are that effective, I will start giving them to my baddies as part of their standard gear. Tanglefoot bags aren't that expensive for such a tough item.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Faen
(6/23/03 1:33 pm)
Reply
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Re: How to defeat Big U?
Tanglefoot bag STR check DC will be significantly lowered in 3.5E.
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ZansForCans 
Faen
(6/23/03 7:03 pm)
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Re: How to defeat Big U?
I didn't realize their full power early enough and I'm uncomfortable with an outright DM fiat on them. I'm going to try to scale back their availability, but I hope to do it without seeming that I'm nerfing just those things (and alchemical fire as well). I have two multiclass rogues in my party and they love to use these, especially against the solo foes. With typical mid-level rogue abilities, stats, etc. they have a hard time missing a ranged touch attack on most things.
I'm happy to see the DC go down in 3.5e, but I wish they would have done even more by lowering something about the attack-made, save-made results as well.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Faen
(6/23/03 9:03 pm)
Reply
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Re: How to defeat Big U?
Luckily my PCs never took a liking to them or much of any of the alchemical devices. I guess you can always remember what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Taxman66
Giant
(6/24/03 4:21 am)
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Re: How to defeat Big U?
The problem is not just the save DC... it is that it invokes a significant penalty even if you make it. That and they are relatively dirt cheap. Just for kicks write up a spell that does the exact same thing as a tanglefoot bag and then fairly try to guage what level it would be... you will be surprised.
I've banned them and thunderstones too. I don't have problem with Alchemical fire that seems reasonable, particularly if you have to deal with regenerators.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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ltplf
Human
(6/24/03 6:23 am)
Reply
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changes?
Excuse me. But what are the changes in 3.5E tanglefoot bag? I would like to add the changes to my campaign but it's almost impossible for me to look up 3.5E PHB for I'm in China...
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TheOutlands
Litorian
(6/24/03 9:07 am)
Reply
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Our group's encounter
They went in expecting the dragon, thanks to the trapper in the woods. What it all boiled down to was a charge by the Paladin and Druid (w/ huge viper) to inflict some damage as U came down the steps. Then the rogue got in position to flank. They pounded on U for a couple of turns, then U took to the air and perched on a wall. A Lightning Bolt (and a failed save) put the rogue into negative HP and (passed saves) put the Pally, Druid, and Viper in a world of hurt. The viper borke and ran (or slithered) away. The Pally moved into the open to "Draw his fire - he seems to be concentrating on me." Oops. That left the Druid and Rogue (now healed up by the Druid) lined up for *another* Lightning Bolt! Ouch - the Druid went negative. The party had dealt some *major* damage to the dragon before he got off the ground. The PCs were too spread out for the hover/blind trick to really work well, so I went straight for the halitosis approach...
The Pally was pissed. He'd already been specifically mentioning praying to Kord and such, so the scene was set.
He charged toward the dragon, who was perched some 15 feet off the ground and jumped. His Boots of striding and Springing helped, but the full-plate-wearing Pally only made it 6' off the ground - until Kord stepped in. Now, it was cinematic and way outside the rules - but, in the flavor of the encounter, the jump *needed* to work. Imagine a Paladin of Kord, in spiked full-plate, with a greataxe +1 charging a wall and then *jumping* for all he's worth. It *needed* to work. It was *right* for the moment.
The greataxe hit and bit DEEP into the dragon's neck. It finished U off right there and the Pally hit the roof. So, now, U's head will adorn the Pally's future stronghold...
--Michael<br>
http://outlands.tripod.com<br>
homesteading, survival, self-reliance, and a whole lot more
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Cordo Crowfoot
Faen
(6/24/03 10:40 am)
Reply
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Re: Our group's encounter
ltplf, of course since the books aren't out yet the typical caveat is in place - "nothing is official until you see it in the books" but word has it that the Strength DC will be changed to DC 17.
BTW, my group included a druid, who cast Entange upon Utreshimon right as he emerged from the moathouse into the courtyard (with the description of the grasses growing between the cobblestones, I allowed Entange to work) and Utreshimon failed his save. It took Utreshimon two rounds to break free which obviously helped my group a lot. However as soon as he broke free he started to use his hover trick, which really threw them. Anyway, they didn't manage to kill Utreshimon, as he fled when he fell under 1/3rd of his hitpoints and had not yet killed any of the five humanoid worms who had invaded his new lair, spoiling his fun.
Ni zhu zai zhongguo de shenme difang?
Edited by: Cordo Crowfoot at: 6/24/03 10:53 am
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lawithro
Giant
(6/24/03 1:50 pm)
Reply
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Re: How to defeat Big U?
My party encountered U four times: The first time at the moathouse, he tricked them into going down into the dungeons, figuring he'd keep them there for play/food). The second time at the moathouse, the PC's fought their way past him, and managed to force him to retreat. They later encountered him at the ruined temple (where U had allied with the hobgoblins). He appeared out from a tunnel he'd made underground, totally surprising and scattering the PC's. Finally, they planned their assault very carefully, and managed to set a trap for *him*. They caught him inside one of the ruined towers, webbed him, hit him with alchemist's fire (all with readied actions). They killed him in about 3 rounds.
It was a very satisfying bad guy, to say the least. The druid in the party is still wearing Blue Dragon Scalemail (I know, U should be too small...but I was feeling generous).
So the lessons learned? Touch attacks are your friend. Killing dragons depends heavily on limiting their movements. Protection from elements are vital. NEVER allow the beast to take a full attack on you. Remember: It's a lot better to suffer an AoO from movement than to suffer 4 or 5 attacks from standing too close.
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genlang
Faen
(6/24/03 2:09 pm)
Reply
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Re: Killing Big U
What are action chips?
pub58.ezboard.com/fokayyo...3020.topic for the long answer. Short answer is found in my post above: chips allowing an extra d4 to be added to a roll
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