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Author
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Comment
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JRedGiant
Faen
(7/7/03 8:04 am)
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Questions on the Howler
Okay, he's big, he's mean, he's got over 100 hp in the properly advanced mode. Here's what I'm not getting...
How does Mereclar ride a howler? Judging by the illustration in the MM, it looks like, well, let's just say I'm not planning on straddling anything that looks remotely like that, saddle or no. Also, assuming he avoids getting the howler's point (heh heh heh) does he use a bit and bridle? If so, would that negate the howlers bite?
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Offgall Fizziwigg
Faen
(7/7/03 8:24 am)
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Re: Questions on the Howler
I would say he rides him bare-back, though I son't see how the barbs would miss him. Also, don't forget to give him some ride howler skills if you intend to use him as such.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/7/03 8:31 am)
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Re: Questions on the Howler
Speaking of this creature I would recommend not using the advanced howler. It's probably my biggest regret so far in my campaign (two dead PCs). Also Monte himself said the stats in the module were the ones that were playtested and the ones he recommended using... the advanced howler is much tougher and quite possibly it would have been toned down if the properly advanced version was playtested. Stats being right doesn't mean right for the module and challenge level.
I agree with you... I certainly wouldn't want to take a chance of sliding forward into those quills. So one possibility is for Mereclar not to ride the Howler. I think bit and bridle would definitely not be used... One plausible control method is a combination of knee/foot pressure and verbal commands.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
Faen
(7/7/03 8:39 am)
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Re: Questions on the Howler
That is my big dilemma. I think it would look cool for Mereclar to be shooting his bow from that big creature, but that requires keeping the howler out of melee range because Mereclar would be getting AoOs. If he stands back, he can let the howler and the mooks go in while he shoots from the back. Then he can wade in, if the fight gets out of hand.
Off topic: I really want to use those ballistae in the back room, though!
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JRedGiant
Faen
(7/7/03 8:55 am)
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Re: Questions on the Howler
I have a few days off work the week before the next session, so I may gather character sheets and simulate the combat with the properly advanced howler. If it looks too tough, I'll tone him down. But my players have ability scores well above average (5d6, drop lowest two) and have fared very well against everything except Lareth and Infiniti2000's evil portcullis ambush...so I'm not completely worried.
Barring someone explaining to me how a howler can be ridden, I'm going to treat him as Mereclar's "special guard dog" and trade off any mounted feats Mereclar has.
Anyone know where I can find rules on ballistae?
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Offgall Fizziwigg
Faen
(7/7/03 8:59 am)
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Re: Questions on the Howler
It's in the DMG under the seige weapon section. It's pretty much a straight role. You would need a 20 to hit an individual, unless it were on a surprise round. You could fire at a mount, or if they are bringing in a wagon, you could tear it to hell. I think it does like 3d10 damage or something.
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Taxman66
Giant
(7/7/03 9:24 am)
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Re: Questions on the Howler
One option is to advance the howler to 9 HD and keep him at large size, instead of huge. This should put it at about the CR level stated in the appendix (i.e. CR 5).
As for riding, it specifically mentions that they can be used as mounts in the MM. So maybe the picture is just off. I could imagine the quils being different... for example they protrude only from the neck and top of the head and point forward only.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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Killiak 
Faen
(7/8/03 4:11 am)
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well
When I think of the Howler, I am thinking of a porcupine having evolved into a vicious predator
So, when in combat, those quills go into an erect position and face forward a bit, so that when he trashes around, they might hit his prey. When not in combat/hunting, they are in a resting position, as is depicted in the MM.
Since Mereclar has the Howler trained, the creature knows to "raise" his quills when Mereclar hops onto his back.
I gave the Howler a special barding, which looks like climbing gear for a human. Doesn't hinder his movement, but can support a sadle or something like it. Mereclar could have made rings on it => place his feet in them or one hand when making his ride check, then use his bow
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 Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/8/03 6:56 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: well
"But my players have ability scores well above average ... and have fared very well against everything except Lareth and Infiniti2000's evil portcullis ambush..."
Glad to have helped! 
Taxman66, isn't the "properly" advanced howler CR 5? Based on the MM errata, I thought it was correct. Anyway, I used the "properly" advanced one, and good thing. It made the encounter not be a cakewalk, but then again my party had 6 PC's of 7th level, a beastly wolf animal companion, and Xaod. If one less PC showed up or they were lower level, there would have been a dead PC for sure. At 5th level, it would have been a guaranteed TPK. My next session log on this fight will be coming out this week. I kid you not, I brought three of the good guys to -9 and no one died. Lucky, lucky, lucky.
I urge you not to use the advanced howler, or to seriously consider a number of flaws in the tactics of the main entrance (e.g. not everyone jumps in on the action, have the howler attack the gnolls at random, etc.), unless you have a suped-up party.
RE: riding. I just figured that the howler can control the quills. After all, he attacks with them. So, maybe it just moves them out of the way of the rider. If you do have Mereclar ride the howler, however, you really must give him ranks in Ride (howler), otherwise he will not succeed very often (maybe that could be one of those tactical flaws, though).
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Taxman66
Giant
(7/8/03 9:40 am)
Reply
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Re: well
Inf...
You kinda answered your own question with your story. 
In all seriousness, I believe (and I could be wrong), that technically you are correct and 12HD howler would be a CR 5 given pure application via MM errata. Which states (IIRC) that if you add 50% extra HD you bump the CR by +1. When you double (100% extra HD) the HD you bump the CR by +2. A standard howler is a 6HD monster so going to 12 makes it CR 5.
However, the Howler already seems to be at the top end of the CR3s (much like an Ogre is at the top end of the CR 2s which also include say Bugbears). Not only are you doubling its HD with the 2nd best (behind dragon) advancement table (see MM pg. 13) you are enlarging it thus increasing its STR, CON, AC, damage dice (which given its special attack ability is a bigger benefit than normal)... oh and lets not forget that it also gets a bump in its reach  . You can also compare it to other CR 5 and CR 6 critters. Given that I think a properly advanced howler is realistically a CR 6.
I still suggest using the 9 HD version, and if you want the encounter a little tougher (to make up for the smaller howler) bumb Mercler up a level and/or add another Warrior level to Wormspike. Neither of which is as potent as making the howler huge but keeps the overall ELs approximately the same.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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Killiak
Faen
(7/8/03 10:14 am)
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Re: well
Keeping the Howler at 9 HD, Mereclar at what he is at, BUT giving Wormspike a Fighter lvl and a Barbarian lvl gives him a bit more staying/swinging power (instead of warrior levels).
This solution adds a bit of spunk to the fight instead of the Howler overshadowing the entire combat. It creates a more realistic balance of power among the main entrance inhabitants
Edited by: Killiak at: 7/8/03 10:16 am
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Andorax
Verrik
(7/8/03 10:57 am)
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Re: well
I used the fully advanced Howler, and it did kill a PC, and I still don't regret it.
Honestly, I like the Howler dominating the fight. I like the idea of something horrific that chills the PCs to the bone right up front. It turns the idea of the "typical" dungeon a bit on it's ear...there's something really nasty right up front.
I am not so keen on the idea of it coming at the expence of PCs, but to a certain extent, they have themselves to blame. There are very solid tactics for engaging things like this. Summoned creatures to tie it up, ranged attacks, delaying spells (web, grease), even expending valuable one-shot resources (bead of force). Heck, sometimes the right strategy is to RUN, and the Howler may just teach a few people to do just that.
As a DM, the only nod I gave to it's excessive deadliness (besides using a very sizable Triceritops for the mini to give it an adequate feeling of being big and threatening) is to make it's own personal tactics VERY sub-optimal. It came running down the hallway, skidded to a halt, and howled madly. When the Monk ran up to it, it attacked him (and killed him outright). It spent another round shaking the corpse, clawing at it, and basically savaging the body. VERY effective for the PCs watching.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Roland the red
Faen
(7/8/03 3:43 pm)
Reply
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The Howler
I plan on using the howler as is. However, this is my second go, and I feel the Ballistae needed a bit more of a showing, so....
I added a Sorcerer to each ballistae to "fire" it...with True Strike.
Yeah, ok, it takes what 3 to fire, but I figure it could work: Two to "rough" aim and load, one to "fine" aim and fire....
We'll see how it goes...
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Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/8/03 5:15 pm)
Reply
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Re: The Howler
As for "turning the typical dungeon on it's ear" is that it is already done at the very front of the module with Utreshimon. So if the players have experienced that it's not like you are breaking any new ground.
I really think using the advanced howler wihtout a good reason is a mistake, and it concerns me to see the majority of DMs here continue to use it.
1) the advanced Howler was not Monte's intent
2) it wasn't playtested that way
3) the west gate complex can be enough of a challenge without the howler
4) there are plently of other deadly parts of the module if you are wanting to "teach your PCs a lesson"
But hey, I'm just trying to save PC lives and reign in frustration levels. And from personal experience from the player's side of the screen, it really irritates me when a DM boosts an area without a good reason or carefully considering the consequences, and a PC dies because of it. I have some real horror stories.
Edited by: Cordo Crowfoot at: 7/8/03 5:17 pm
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Taxman66
Giant
(7/9/03 4:40 am)
Reply
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Re: The Howler
I agree with Cordo. As for Killack's suggestion to bump Wormspike I don't agree as this makes him tougher than his commander... unless you ment replacing his 2 warrior levels with PC levels. Even then he becomes argueably tougher than Mereclar. The warrior level should about do it as it gives him +1BAB, +6 or 7 hit points and a feat. Replacing the levels with Barb/Fighter gives him +3 hit points a feat and the rage ability.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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Andorax
Verrik
(7/9/03 7:00 am)
Reply
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Re: The Howler
Then if I may recommend? A 9 HD version go into the errata to sit side by side with the 12 HD version, along with the notes of "proper advancement vs intent and balance" and leave the decision to DMs.
We'll have to see if the Howler gets any sort of a facelift in 3.5 when we're putting that doc together.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/9/03 7:13 am)
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Re: The Howler
Currently this is already in the errata after the advanced version:
Quote:
Note, however, that Cordo Crowfoot has the following tidbit straight from the horse's mouth (as it were):
I asked Monte if he would recommend that DMs use the tougher correctly advanced version of the howler in the errata, or if he would use the original, albeit incorrect, statblock.
His answer:
"The original version. That's what was playtested. It was modified to be just right for that encounter."
Use the errata'd version with caution!
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Thrommel
Runechild (mod)
Council of Magisters
(7/9/03 7:44 am)
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Re: The Howler
Just some background, for what it's worth -- I'm the guy that advanced the Howler stats. Mostly because I was advancing a lot of other monsters IMC and noticed that the stats for the Howler were wrong by the rules as they appeared in the MM (as they are for a lot of the 'advanced' monsters in the module, ie, the Skum in the Water Temple).
I think this is one area where the module suffers from being the first big 3E adventure out of the gate -- I suspect the advancement rules changed by the time the module was really done.
At any rate, I guess the short answer to this is YMMV. While RttToEE was playtested under one scenario, the module was not playtested with the plethora of rules torques and PrC options that are out there now. You have to judge the power level of your own campaign and PCs.
"Use the errata'd version with caution!" is the best advice there is.
-Thrommel, whose second best piece of advice is "Never French kiss a froghemoth."
~Council of Magisters~
~ Arcana Unearthed ~ |
Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/9/03 8:05 am)
Reply
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Re: The Howler
Quote:
I'm the guy that advanced the Howler stats
How does it feel to be (indirectly) responsible for so many PC deaths around the world?
On a more serious note I'm not sure it was a mistake, as Monte does say "it was modified to be just right for this encounter."
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Thrommel
Runechild (mod)
Council of Magisters
(7/9/03 12:24 pm)
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Re: The Howler
Hey, if I had a soul do you think I'd spend so much time here?
Well if anything, the mistake is then in labelling it an 'advanced howler'. It's a semantics issue, but if it just said 'modified howler' I wouldn't have touched it, to be quite honest.
At this point the issue is moot. Use it, lose it, or abuse it as you are wont to do in your game.
-Thrommel, who's directly responsible for so many PC deaths he really can't be bothered to keep track of all the indirect ones.
~Council of Magisters~
~ Arcana Unearthed ~ |
Glog
Human
(7/9/03 2:28 pm)
Reply
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Re: Thrommel responsible for THIS PCs death again and again.
Speaking as someone who has suffered at the hands of Thrommel the DM, I can tell you he has no remorse. My character got reincarnated so many times during our version of RttToEE that I forgot what race I originally started as. And there were more times than I care to count that I almost wet my pants when we got three rounds into some of the stuff we saw.
I also know how many HOURS AND HOURS Thrommel spent preparing for each session as he buffed up those encounters again and again, so more power to you if you have that much stamina.
Just remember, from the players perspective, not EVERY fight needs to be a climactic battle deluxe - but the Howler should probably be one of them so take the time to do it right. By all other accounts on the boards, it seems to have significant "pucker factor" potential!
Glog
- I don't want the world. I just want YOUR half.
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