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Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/9/03 8:08 pm)
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Raise dead and ressurection in 3.5
There is an interesting thread on the changes to raise dead and ressurection at ENWorld, here:
enworld.cyberstreet.com/s...genumber=1
For those of you that don't know, the costs of these spells have changed.
Raise dead is now 5000gp, Ressurection 10000gp, and True Ressurection 25000gp.
RttToEE arguably being a "meatgrinder", this may well be the biggest effect of switching over to 3.5E on an RttToEE campaign.
Andy Collins posted on the WotC boards on the change, saying:Quote: We pegged the new prices to be roughly 10% of a typical character's wealth at the level when a cleric could cast the spell.
For instance, raise dead at 5000 is 10% of the wealth of a typical 10th-level character. (It's about 14% of the wealth of a 9th-level character, the minimum level at which raise dead could be cast.)
Resurrection, at 10,000, is about 9% of the wealth of a 13th-level character, while true resurrection (25K) is about 7.5% of the wealth of a 17th-level character.
This encourages the party to use its own resources for raising, etc., rather than relying only on the "clerics in town." That means more clerics packing raise dead (or a raise dead scroll) for dungeon explorations, which means more in-adventure raises, which means fewer mandatory retreats from the dungeon.
This change was based on a couple conclusions:
1) Raising from the dead was too cheap. It wasn't "special" or even "unusual"--it was so commonplace as to place significant strains on the believability of the system.
2) By the time your party cleric could raise the dead, no character in the party would willingly agree to a raise dead, since true resurrection was dirt-cheap and didn't cost a level. That meant that characters never raised their own dead unless there was simply no other option. If a character died in the first encounter, the party went back to town to get him true-rezzed, even if the rest of the group was at full strength. That really puts a crimp in the flow of an adventure, and forces the players to weigh their odds of success against the fun of letting all the players play. That was an unfair decision to force on the players, in our opinions.
This second point was actually more problematic to us, as it meant that one of the cleric's roles (bringing his comrades back from the dead) was essentially being ignored. With the higher prices, the typical 9th-level PC can't afford true resurrection without going into severe hock, which means that he's happy to take the party cleric's raise dead (and thus keep the adventure moving ahead).
By tying the increased cost to the material component value (rather than adding an XP cost to the caster, for instance), characters can easily barter for the service. Don't have 5000 gp to get your buddy raised? OK, we'll raise him and then you can take on this low-level quest for the church to repay us. That gives the DM the power to increase character access to such effects, if he so chooses.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station Edited by: Cordo Crowfoot at: 7/9/03 8:12 pm
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Eldric IV 
Resident Paladin
(7/9/03 9:43 pm)
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Re: Raise dead and ressurection in 3.5
You should probably post this in D&D Magic so more people will see and discuss it.
**Final Words, before the battle with Demogorgon: My life does not matter. It was given to me to better the lives of my people. Please give the Pureblade to my son so that he may finish what I start here today.** |
Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/9/03 10:08 pm)
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Re: Raise dead and ressurection in 3.5
Rather than the random opinions of the unwashed masses in other areas (which probably wouldn't differ significantly from the six and growing pages of debate on ENWorld), I was particularly wanting to hear the opinions of other RttToEE DMs on the effect of this change on RttToEE campaigns. Particularly as I think this will have more of an impact on RttToEE campaigns than other campaigns. But ok I'll post in magic as well, and leave this thread to discuss the specific impact on our meatgrinder campaigns.
As an interesting side note, I think I saw elsewhere that Andy Collins is running an RttToEE campaign. Maybe he is even lurking here... /me bangs on the woodwork as if to flush something out
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Killiak 
Litorian
(7/9/03 10:44 pm)
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Re: Raise dead and ressurection in 3.5
This only strenghtens the need for a patron or a mentor for a party when playing in a meatgrinder campaign.
IMC for example, they have the VERY LIMITED aid of the Cuthbert church, but it's that little bit of aid that makes the difference for them. Now more then ever they will need some authority watching their back and saving them by means of discount
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DestyNova1
Faen
(7/9/03 11:25 pm)
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Raising
It also encourages them to interact with town/city inhabitants and get a good rapport going. There is one adventuring group here that has been very secretive and not saying anything to Hommlett's leaders.
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Roland the red
Faen
(7/10/03 4:29 am)
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New Characters
This change won't effect my campaign, I've already hiked up the costs for RD/R/TR...all it effectively does is give players a chance to create another character. It is my experience that they actually look forward to create another character. Some even carry "spare" characters just in case their current one meets an untimely end...(I try to introduce them as NPCs beforehand)
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blakwind
Faen
(7/10/03 6:16 am)
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Re: New Characters
Quote: This change won't effect my campaign.
Ditto for me. IMC, I houseruled RD/R/TR to be very costly, though I did it through penalties on the caster (XP, 24h casting time, permission from patron deity, etc.).
Many of the 3.5 changes, including this one, are actually bringing the core D&D rules back in-line with my campaign house rules.
My players are very cautious. Though there have been MANY close calls, IMC, there have been very few PC deaths (two, IIRC). Any characters that have been raised, have become NPCs. In fact, the only time my PC cleric cast raise dead, it was to raise Rerrid Hammersong, who had died when the PCs inadvertently drew Hedrack's attention to innocent Rastor.
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/10/03 6:40 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: New Characters
What are the changes with reincarnation, I wonder. Hopefully, it will be in-line with raise dead. My group is currently very highly magicked, so if anyone dies I don't see it being a problem to get true rezzed, at least for the next 2-3 deaths. However, this would probably put them back in line with a normal party so it's not a Bad Thing (tm).
All this means to RttToEE, however, is that it suggests people not boost! This means you, Siobharek!
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Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/10/03 8:08 am)
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3.5 Reincarnation of Reincarnate
Reincarnate costs 1000gp worth of rare oils and unguents. According to the new section on character death in the 3.5e DMG it is balanced by the drawback that you can't control the new form and you may not be welcome in civilized society.
Also there is a new much more limited list of creatures you can be reincarnated as: Bugbear, Dwarf, Elf, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Half-elf, Half-orc, Halfling, Human, Kobold, Lizardfolk, Orc, Trog, Other (roll of 100 remains "DM's choice")
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/10/03 9:45 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: 3.5 Reincarnation of Reincarnate
The 3.0e didn't answer this, but what happens when a player reincarnates her advanced, awakened wolf animal companion? I guess I'll find out when I get the new books.
Btw, she did it in the CRM, believe it or not. I had her roll a will save (DC 20, she made it) or the animal companion would be evil. I described it as "pulling the new body through a strainer composed of evil essence." She didn't like the sound of that in character, but really enjoyed the description and made the group as a whole respect the temple a little bit.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/10/03 9:29 pm)
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Re: 3.5 Reincarnation of Reincarnate
It says for non-humanoid creatures the DM should create a table of similar creatures, or just choose the new form. I guess we may see these from WotC as extra content at some point as well.
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