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Andorax
Verrik
(7/24/03 2:05 pm)
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Re: v35 collection
Third Wizard, it looks like we have prescident. Thanks, and good eye.

I'll go make the changes.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Siobharek 
Verrik
(7/24/03 2:47 pm)
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ezSupporter

Re: v35 collection
Guys, I just talked to the game shop in the UK who's sending me my books. Looks like they're up to 2 weeks away. I'll try and get in on some editing, but I'm sorry: I don't see what I can do at the moment. :(

Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

ZansForCans 
Litorian
(7/26/03 12:01 pm)
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Re: v35 collection
I have begun The Document! As I am writing the intro, it occurred to me that we could, if we wanted, have the entire errata included here as well. I know the NPC errata is already being included. Should non-NPC errata be included as well? I was leaning toward yes, but wanted to get more feedback first. It could make it very long.


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msherman
Faen
(7/26/03 12:10 pm)
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Re: v35 collection
Definitely, yes. A single document with all changes required to the module would be most useful.

ZansForCans 
Litorian
(7/26/03 8:33 pm)
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Re: v35 collection
Here's a first cut at the stat block section. Please download, print, etc. and tell me what you think!

zans.clanplaid.net/v35/sample.pdf

I changed the colors to slightly darker shades for a white background. Other suggestions are welcome. The font is 9pt right now. I'd like to push it down further, but I'm not sure that's best for everyone. Let me know.


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msherman
Faen
(7/27/03 5:45 am)
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Re: v35 collection
It looks good to me, but only because all the colour prints out black-and-white on my printer. As long as I never have to refer to the PDF on my computer for information, I'm ok.

What source format are you creating that PDF in? Is it going to be available for download as well? I like to create 1 page "brawl sheets" for each complex, with stripped down stat blocks for the big fights we get each session. Currently I have to retype everything from the module, but if the source format for this were available, I wouldn't have to. Copying directly from the PDF is a real pain, because copying from Acrobat preserves the columnar formatting.

An 8pt font would probably be ok, but I'd recommend you switch to a serif font; they're easier on the eyes with small dense body text. Also, some typographical convention other than colour (ie: a font change? a 10%grey background shade?) for the changes might be better than colour changes for the green and orange stuff. Perhaps a quarter inch inset for the orange section, too. We don't really need to draw much distinction between the green and orange text, actually; the orange always appears at the end, while the green always appears in line.

You knew I'd be complaining, right? I used to work on colour correction software, beleive it or not. I've got years of pent up rage at over-reliance on colour in interface design. :) I promise I'll get at least one more stat block done today in my section to balance out the karma. Actually, I'm pretty sure that Vranthis was the only difficult conversion in my area; I may be able to finish the whole thing today just updating page refs.

Edited by: msherman at: 7/27/03 5:50 am
Daeinar
Faen
(7/27/03 6:44 am)
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PDF Format
Perhaps it would be easiest to just put the whole orange texts into "Sidebar Boxes", just like the ones you see in the official products. Could be in full column width, though.

That way, you'll always have a clear indication of what is actual game information, and what ist "behind the screen" stuff. I.e. "changes explained".

The orange just doesn't work outside the message board imho.

iago
Faen
(7/27/03 10:06 am)
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Arcane spellcasters with armor
I just finished converting Master Dunrat from the Town of Homlett, and I was wondering...is there a place in the stat block to include arcane spell failure chance? I was thinking of making the following change, but decided to run the idea here first to see what everyone else thought:

Change:

Sorceror Spells Known (5/3; base DC = 10 + spell level) 0- detect magic, etc, etc.

To:

Sorceror Spells Known (5/3; base DC = 10 + spell level; Arcane Spell Failure Chance 25%) 0- detect magic, etc, etc.

I think that we could just leave the stat block as-is for arcane spellcasters who wear no armor, but it'd be nice to see it on fellows like Master Dunrat who insist on casting sorceror spells while wearing a breastplate.

ZansForCans 
Litorian
(7/27/03 12:13 pm)
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Re: Arcane spellcasters with armor
Yes, that's where it goes, at least with 3.0. Check out Redithidoor's stat block. The official one looks like it puts the % first and then the same wording you have, but all lowercase.


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ZansForCans 
Litorian
(7/27/03 12:33 pm)
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Re: v35 collection
Quote:
It looks good to me, but only because all the colour prints out black-and-white on my printer. As long as I never have to refer to the PDF on my computer for information, I'm ok.


Ah, crap. Well, I have no problem changing any colors on my end. It's very trivial to search & replace the colors. As long as we stay away from red & green tints, will you be OK? Or, can you come up with two that look good on a white background for you and that are still distinct from black?

Quote:
You knew I'd be complaining, right? I used to work on colour correction software, beleive it or not. I've got years of pent up rage at over-reliance on colour in interface design.


Complain away! I'm actually very glad you are working on this because I'm sure it's a problem that many of us don't encounter. Making these work as we intend for as many out there as possible is what I'd like to strive for.

Quote:
What source format are you creating that PDF in? Is it going to be available for download as well? I like to create 1 page "brawl sheets" for each complex, with stripped down stat blocks for the big fights we get each session. Currently I have to retype everything from the module, but if the source format for this were available, I wouldn't have to. Copying directly from the PDF is a real pain, because copying from Acrobat preserves the columnar formatting.


It's in Word, and I intend to release both formats, so no problems there (I hope). If you want even more options, I'll try--just let me know. As for Acroread, are you aware of the column select text tool? I don't see it obviously in Acroread 6, but in 5 there was a separate text select tool that would let you select text properly from column-ed material (like WotC's FAQs).

Quote:
An 8pt font would probably be ok, but I'd recommend you switch to a serif font; they're easier on the eyes with small dense body text. Also, some typographical convention other than colour (ie: a font change? a 10%grey background shade?) for the changes might be better than colour changes for the green and orange stuff. Perhaps a quarter inch inset for the orange section, too. We don't really need to draw much distinction between the green and orange text, actually; the orange always appears at the end, while the green always appears in line.


I'll try a font change. I was noticing this morning, as I suspected, that the font size in the book was smaller for the stat blocks. I was a little worried that typical printer resolution wouldn't be able to match theirs sufficiently well for that density, but I'll give it a shot.

I was worried about the printing in b/w issue with the color anyway, so I'll try to come up with some other idea for denoting changes. I almost tried bold, but I think that might be confusing with the other styles already used in the stat blocks. Underlining could work, but might be annoying for long blocks of text (like SQ/SA descriptions). I'll try a few things out and post another sample up.

Quote:
Perhaps it would be easiest to just put the whole orange texts into "Sidebar Boxes", just like the ones you see in the official products. Could be in full column width, though.


I like your reasoning behind this, but I worry about keeping the sidebars and the stat block text in sync. Maybe I'll try a lightly shaded and outlined box for our explanation text to demarcate it a little more from the blocks themselves.


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ZansForCans 
Litorian
(7/27/03 4:39 pm)
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Re: v35 collection
Try this new version:

zans.clanplaid.net/v35/sample2.pdf

The font and size is nearly identical to the book. Using blue & underline now for changes.


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msherman
Faen
(7/27/03 4:57 pm)
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Re: v35 collection
Looks great. The changed parts print (on my system, at least) as black text with a very subtle underline, which looks terrific. I liked the boxed text for the end commentary, too.

Admiral Xzar
Faen
(7/28/03 7:44 am)
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Re: v35 collection
finished Fire Temple Conversion...

what`s next?8)

Xzar

msherman
Faen
(7/28/03 11:17 am)
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Re: v35 collection
Smetzger, are you still planning to do the south gate/Air temple? My party may be headed that way Real Soon Now...

Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/28/03 11:59 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: v35 collection
"finished Fire Temple Conversion..." Great job! :)

"what`s next?"
How about stepping backwards for a minute (something easier) and do Maps F and D? I've updated the list accordingly.

ZansForCans 
Litorian
(7/28/03 9:21 pm)
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Edits
OK, I'm starting to pull in some of the finished blocks into the final print document. If it's not too much trouble, please try to note below the stat block quoted area what you change if you edit a past block. This will help me keep in sync without going insane :)


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msherman
Faen
(7/29/03 5:17 am)
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Re: Edits
If I can make a suggestion, Zans, I wouldn't start putting an area into the PDF until the thread owner has declared it complete. So that means, AFAIK, just the Fire Temple and North Bridge so far.

Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/29/03 7:19 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
Credits
Do we want to provide the credits for each part to the respective person, or just provide a list overall in the beginning of the PDF?

ThirdWizard 
Sibeccai
(7/29/03 9:43 am)
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Re: Credits
It depends. If it would be a good idea to be able to contact the people who did the conversions at a later date (perhaps to get more insight into their conversion), then it might be a good idea to note who did what. If that's superfluous, then perhaps its not as important. I guess that boils down to how different this is really going to be from the origional.

ZansForCans 
Litorian
(7/29/03 10:56 am)
Reply
Re: Credits
Quote:
I guess that boils down to how different this is really going to be from the origional.


Well, you do know we are changing the name, right? I'm still enamored with Yet Another Return... or YARttToEE, for short, pronounced yart-toohey, or in gnomish: "Yot Anelthre Rotuurn tel thu Tonplo elve Elonontel Evil" ;)

More seriously...

For now, I've been keeping a list of credits in the intro, but that can be easily changed.

If you're curious...

What I've done so far is take the Errata and FAQ document and munged it here and there to accommodate the v3.5 changes. The intro has been expanded with some general philosophy about the conversion, and the credits for the conversion are added separately from the errata credits. Then, I've restructured the Errata sections to match the book chapters exactly, with the CRM split out a little more by map as we've done before. The errata have been trimmed of all corrections related to Appendix 3 (probably at least 1/2 of them), with the anticipation that most, if not all will be included in the new stat blocks and comments. They can always be inserted back in there from the old doc, if they prove more useful in the appropriate section.

Now, I've been starting to incorporate some of the stat blocks into the Appendix 3 section.

msherman, yeah, I guess I could do that. My guess is that even the 'finished' threads will still have minor tweaks as random folks get to really study them, though, so a short changelog would really help me out. I give them a good check-over before putting them in as well, as iago can probably attest to. :) I don't mind doing minor edits after I put them in. The copy/paste/format cycle is getting faster, but is still most of the work (besides the actual checking of the block).


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